Author Topic: Where it makes sense to go Russian  (Read 13866 times)

adroth

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Where it makes sense to go Russian
« on: November 30, 2016, 09:05:08 AM »
In the wake of improving relations between the Philippines and Russia, the Russian ambassador issued the following statement

Russia eyes supplying military hardware to PH
Associated Press / 06:02 PM November 29, 2016

. . .

Russia is “interested in long-term cooperation” that is comprehensive and includes “all forms — supply of arms and weapons, staff training, maintenance, transfer of technology,” he added.

< Edited >

Given that the vast majority of AFP equipment is oriented towards the west, the Philippines cannot accept this offer with the goal of "ripping and replacing" existing equipment. Not only would this be prohibitively expensive this would set the AFP back to square one in terms of support and training.

The opportunities that must be explored must be "green field" opportunities. Classes of weapons that have never existed in the AFP inventory.

That being said, we also cannot ignore the importance of commonality with our existing, formally declared, allies. When excrement hits the propeller, the Philippines is obligated to come to the aid of the US when needed and vice versa. This means that inter-operability remains a critical consideration.

That means Russian small arms are out. AK-101s shouldn't replace M-4s anytime soon.

Russian fighters are iffy. This has been discussed ad nauseum in the old forum, and as well as here.

Where does that leave us?

1. Any Russian equipment we acquire must actually be equipment that the US and other allies are already familiar with and for which they can actually support via their logistical systems

2. Must represent new capabilities that the US is very unlikely to assist us, or even allow us, to acquire through them

Lets explore this on this thread
« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 09:57:15 AM by adroth »

adroth

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Re: Where it makes sense to go Russian
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2016, 09:22:28 AM »
The following areas make sense:

1. SRDP: Technology transfer for RPG-7 launchers and current generation RPG warheads

2. Mi-17 heavy lift helicopters

3. SRDP: Technology transfer of rocket engine technology, both solid and liquid fueled


=====

SRDP: Technology transfer for RPG-7 launchers and current generation RPG warheads

The Philippine Army already intended to acquire RPG-7 launcher from Airtronic as part of an FMS deal. The only reason this plan has not yet borne fruit is because of issues with the supplier. The AFP wants the weapon. The US is able to supply it, and therefore a line item in its logistical system.



Why not ask the Russians for the technology to build it ourselves along with the next generation warheads that the Chinese have not copied yet?



Photo from: http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/stories/east_europe/russia/weapons/rpg-7/rpg-7_ammunition_Russia_russian_001.jpg

For the vanilla warheads, we could potentially lean on our allies for support. Like the one below. But if we make the specialized warheads ourselves, then we'd be self-sufficient and can actually help our allies, for a change, if they need them.



Mi-17 heavy lift helicopters

When the AFP felt the pinch in its heavy vertical lift capability a few years ago, it actually started looking for ramp-equipped helicopters that could provide the same kind of capability that UN helicopters provided during one particular typhoon relief operation





The UN helicopters were leased from Russia. As a result, the PAF actually eyed the Mi-17, which is a generation newer than the Mi-6 pictured here.

The US actually supplies Mi-17s to the Afghan Air Force, to the consternation of the US Congress that want this money going to US companies and are working to end this practice.

Quote
http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articles/2013/06/mi17-helicopter-buy.html

Officials of the Army Contracting Command at Redstone Arsenal, Ala. are awarding a $572.2 million contrac to JSC Rosoboronexport in Moscow for 30 Mi-17 helicopters, spare parts, test equipment and engineering support

Why not negotiate a government-to-government deal for this particular helicopter? AFAIK, nothing on the market comes close to its combination of price and performance . . . and the US acknowledges their usefulness

SRDP: Technology transfer for rocket engines, both solid and liquid fueled

Each 2.75 inch rocket costs the tax payer approximately P150,000. As PAFUnixGeek once pointed out, each time S-76 pilots fire a rocket as part of exercises they jokingly say "kotse", as this also roughly how much a budget car costs.

Imagine the advantages to be had if we could produce these missiles ourselves in volume at the Government Arsenal. Per-unit costs would depend on how many of these can both produce and consume per year. But if the equipment to produce these rocket motors already exists at the GA, we'd have the strategic benefit of being able to produce rockets whenever we need them

As for liquid fueled rockets. IMHO, the Philippines needs the strategic option to de-populate Mischief Reef is China does anything we don't approve of anywhere else in our EEZ
« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 09:58:51 AM by adroth »

jetmech

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Re: Where it makes sense to go Russian
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2016, 03:42:01 PM »
....it still requires sustainable funding and proper management to operate whatever fancy toys the Russians will offer. Nothing to be excited about. 

kyuzoaoi

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Re: Where it makes sense to go Russian
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2016, 01:16:18 AM »
If the Philippines are serious in buying Russian equipment, perhaps they could ask advice from Malaysia and Indonesia, both having Russian equipment. The problem is that the Russian equipment in their arsenal is different from what the Duterte administration have in mind, like combat aircraft (which the Philippines does not have), and Indonesia under Suharto phased out Soviet equipment in favor of US and European equipment and its only recently that Indonesia brought in Sukhois.





LionFlyer

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Re: Where it makes sense to go Russian
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2016, 07:17:57 AM »
Quote
In comments to the Philippine government's information bureau on 29 November, Lorenzana said that during his visit to Moscow he would "window shop" Russian military equipment. He added, "We will visit Russia to look into some of the military equipment [that] we can acquire. One of the first things we will look into is their sniper rifles."
- Janes

mamiyapis

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Re: Where it makes sense to go Russian
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2016, 10:55:42 PM »
If it comes down to weapons that the US and her allies are unwilling to supply us, then we also venture into areas like Air Defense, where the Russians have a clear lead in layered, ground-based defense systems. Having never operated a similar system before, the doors are clearly open for systems from either side of the table.

The Duterte administration can easily push for Russian SAM systems, which are known for creating no-go corridors even for Western Gen 4++ aircraft, the same generation Chinese aircraft are currently attempting to match.

r3mu511

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Re: Where it makes sense to go Russian
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2016, 12:15:09 AM »
^hey @mamiyapis, might be time to revive something like your "s300/400-in-palawan" thread from the old forum :D

curiously I was just reading on the russiadefence.net site on some discussions about the almaz-antey product lines for the 9m96 series of SAMs (ie. the ones that go in the redut and s350-vityaz systems, as well as quad-packed in the s400)... it seems the almaz-antey CEO got the boot a while back due to (among other issues) problems they were having integrating the 9m96 with the poliment-redut system on the gorshkov class... and there seems to be some sentiment that the s350-vityaz itself is considered "vaporware"?

anyway, I'm really looking forward to them getting their 9m96 product lines sorted out since it offers a nice medium range (40-120 km depending on exact variant) SAM to the long range 48n6 and 40n6 series in the s300pmu2/s400 systems...

aris_glock40

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Re: Where it makes sense to go Russian
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2016, 02:47:25 PM »
    When I visited the static display of our Armed forces in Boni High yesterday I got a chance to speak with a personnel of CBRn unit. In our conversation they the unit members are very much impress with the aid program of the US that they benefited in terms of training in Maryland on the type of their mission without any cost to the GRP. & if those sensitive equipment will come to a ware & tear problem the US can immediately provide a replacement & not end up the fate of other  hardware that was provided before.
     That his sentiment is defintely not official but He/they are convinced the the Alliance is very necessary with those western equipments they used is not only compatible with other allied nations like NATO but the technology itself is, according to the experience of the Officer is very much within the Quality standard that if I understood on his note is a Soldier Friendly that will be comfortable to use as against the Russians & chinese equipment that may put the end user 's safety at risk that I cannot comprehend it further in this discuusions since im no expert at all. & just sharing the sentiments of our troops in the front like in the said type of warfare(chemical containment).
    He is also impress & satisfied that the CBRn tools provided  by the US to PI is very much updated than what he saw in our neighbors Inventory though they are much ahead in experience but our Local Unit may only making up but had the benefit of an advance tech.
    To them EDCA is indeed relevant for them to cope with the challenge of the new millineum (not only Conventional but critical on domestic & foreign Threats & >politics<??? oops just my thought)not only specific on their task but for the whole AFP & not to expose the personnel on a technology that will pull the safety standard & Comfort away.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2016, 02:57:50 PM by aris_glock40 »

adroth

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Re: Where it makes sense to go Russian
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2016, 02:58:43 PM »
Exploring options with Russia and other non-traditional vendors doesn't mean we turn our back on the US. As stated at the start of the thread, "going Russian" makes sense for systems for which the US can't or won't provide.

wyvern1_6

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Re: Where it makes sense to go Russian
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2016, 10:58:02 AM »
"The US actually supplies Mi-17s to the Afghan Air Force, to the consternation of the US Congress that want this money going to US companies and are working to end this practice."

Interestingly enough, I met up a few months ago with a highschool classmate of mine who's a Warrant Officer in the US Army. He cross-trained on the Mi-17 and is currently attached to a Special Operations task force assisting the Afghan's in rebuilding their airforce. He's quite a fan of the "Westernized" Mi-17's they operate. If we ever got some of those he'd jump at the opportunity to help train the PAF should a gig become available as he's close to taking retirement.

horge

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Re: Where it makes sense to go Russian
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2016, 11:33:09 AM »
^hey @mamiyapis, might be time to revive something like your "s300/400-in-palawan" thread from the old forum :D



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r3mu511

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Re: Where it makes sense to go Russian
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2016, 03:15:43 PM »
^careful now @horge, lol... @mamiyapis is a global moderator now ;D

horge

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Re: Where it makes sense to go Russian
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2016, 05:03:06 PM »
^careful now @horge, lol... @mamiyapis is a global moderator now ;D

...and now I'm fully aroused.




mamiyapis

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Re: Where it makes sense to go Russian
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2016, 10:11:24 PM »
^hey @mamiyapis, might be time to revive something like your "s300/400-in-palawan" thread from the old forum :D

curiously I was just reading on the russiadefence.net site on some discussions about the almaz-antey product lines for the 9m96 series of SAMs (ie. the ones that go in the redut and s350-vityaz systems, as well as quad-packed in the s400)... it seems the almaz-antey CEO got the boot a while back due to (among other issues) problems they were having integrating the 9m96 with the poliment-redut system on the gorshkov class... and there seems to be some sentiment that the s350-vityaz itself is considered "vaporware"?

anyway, I'm really looking forward to them getting their 9m96 product lines sorted out since it offers a nice medium range (40-120 km depending on exact variant) SAM to the long range 48n6 and 40n6 series in the s300pmu2/s400 systems...

LOL, S350 hasn't even gone online with the Russians even with claims of regiments being supplied with the missiles and new TEL/RADAR combo. Vaporware? Most probably. But the Russians have this terrible habit of surprising people when it's most inconvenient. :D

Honestly? Even systems like the Buk M2 would be something worth considering. Anything to make those imaginary PLAAF invasion pilots sweat just a little bit more in their jumpsuits.


*my body is ready*




...and now I'm fully aroused.






... and now I'm scared, h.

Seriously though... I'll give it some thought... maybe when the ground-based radars show up AND PAF throws up a requirement for something like an AWACS bird that can identify, locate, and track enemy assets, then we can re-float that boat. :D

S-300/400 would make up a serious AD bubble even the Chinese would be hard-pressed to penetrate... but conversely, could also give both sides know-how on penetrating each other's AD bubbles.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 03:12:23 AM by mamiyapis »

Juramentado

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Re: Where it makes sense to go Russian
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2016, 02:15:47 AM »
"The US actually supplies Mi-17s to the Afghan Air Force, to the consternation of the US Congress that want this money going to US companies and are working to end this practice."

Interestingly enough, I met up a few months ago with a highschool classmate of mine who's a Warrant Officer in the US Army. He cross-trained on the Mi-17 and is currently attached to a Special Operations task force assisting the Afghan's in rebuilding their airforce. He's quite a fan of the "Westernized" Mi-17's they operate. If we ever got some of those he'd jump at the opportunity to help train the PAF should a gig become available as he's close to taking retirement.

The US supplied Afghanistan with Hips because at the time, Afghan AF maintainers and pilots were familiar with Russian equipment and mostly (notwithstanding the changes in regimes) the infrastructure and Institutional Memory to support it without a big transition.

Ironically because of challenges cross-training and embedding safety practices into the Afghan AF, the US is now looking to dump the old A-model UH-60s in the National Guard, refurb them and and equip them with the AAF. That will give the Guard the excuse to move to M-models.