Author Topic: Primary and Secondary Search Radars @ PH airports  (Read 65895 times)

r3mu511

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Re: Primary and Secondary Search Radars @ PH airports
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2016, 10:19:58 AM »
^thanks @SG :D exactly the info needed...

from the pdfs you linked and with the understanding that by 'primary radar' is meant the non-cooperative-target (PSR) ATCR set, and by 'secondary radar' is meant the cooperative/transponder-target (SSR) SIR-S set, this info would indeed confirm that clark got the lowest configuration (ie. 60 nm) atcr33 as PSR with a SIR-S as SSR...

---

also of interest to note is that in the 2008 annual report pdf link you posted, the front image shows the SIR-S SSR (cooperative/transponder set, the rectangular grid frame antenna) on the tower without radome (and in the background one can see a second tower but with nothing yet mounted at the top)... if one zooms in on the pic one can actually see the upper shape of the ATCR33 (non-cooperative set, spoiled parabolic mesh antenna) right underneath the SIR-S in the usual PSR-below-SSR-above mounting pattern one sees in selex catalogs...

while in the 2011 annual report pdf, the front cover now shows the radar tower with a radome (ie. as it appears in the google maps link in an earlier post)...

here's a pic on the net (googling for "clark airport radar") showing a better view of the PSR-below-SSR-above mounting for the ATCR33 plus SIR-S combo without the radome:


adroth

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Re: Primary and Secondary Search Radars @ PH airports
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2016, 11:11:41 AM »
here's a pic on the net (googling for "clark airport radar") showing a better view of the PSR-below-SSR-above mounting for the ATCR33 plus SIR-S combo without the radome:



Looks different from the earlier post with a photo of Clark management.

r3mu511

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Re: Primary and Secondary Search Radars @ PH airports
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2016, 12:03:26 PM »
^you mean this one @chief:



selex doesn't have a 2D air traffic surveillance radar which uses a parabolic dish antenna because for 2D air surveillance you want a beam lobe structure which is wide in the vertical axis and narrow in the horizontal axis so that with each rotation it sweeps a tall but narrow arc as it turns...

a parabolic dish like in the picture would have a beam shape which is narrow in both dimensions thus giving a pencil beam which is good for 3D target ranging/tracking (since you want to fix the target in azimuth and elevation), weather doppler radar (since you want a very small weather cell in order to get a high resolution over the entire volume being scanned for weather phenomena), satellite comms (since you want a tight, highly-directional beam aimed at the satellite)...

the following clark web article has this entry (note the VHF frequency band, in contrast to the S-band ATCR33 for air traffic surveillance):

http://www.clarksubicmarketing.com/logistics_supply_chain/clark_airport_dmia_facilities.htm

Quote
Doppler Very High Frequency Omni-Directional Range Radar

I'm not sure if the term "omni-directional" was incorrectly used to refer to the ability to direct the beam to an arbitrary direction, or if it's used in the normal sense meaning the RF signal propagates in all directions at once... if it's the former then they might be describing the dish antenna, if the latter then this is not the dish antenna in which case the dish in the pic might be a terminal doppler weather radar (something airports use to monitor weather directly around them)... or the web article could be referring to a VOR (vhf omni-directional radio ranging system) and has nothing to do with the dish in the pic...

whichever the case (ranging radar, weather doppler, or satellite comms), this dish would be a different system from the primary+secondary air surveillance radars inside the radome as shown in the pictures in the annual report pdfs as well as in the previous post's pic...
« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 12:28:29 PM by r3mu511 »

adroth

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Re: Primary and Secondary Search Radars @ PH airports
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2016, 04:32:08 PM »
^you mean this one @chief:



selex doesn't have a 2D air traffic surveillance radar which uses a parabolic dish antenna because for 2D air surveillance you want a beam lobe structure which is wide in the vertical axis and narrow in the horizontal axis so that with each rotation it sweeps a tall but narrow arc as it turns...

Assuming the caption were correct, I figured that the tower behind the dish is what would have the radar. Sadly, it's not in view

r3mu511

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Re: Primary and Secondary Search Radars @ PH airports
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2016, 06:43:16 PM »
@chief -- ^ah, you mean another PSR set different from what is shown in the pics in the clark annual report pdfs... I suppose that's a possibility as well...

from what can be seen in the annual reports, the pics of the atr33/sir-s combo and it's radome tower appear to match up with the surroundings as seen in the previous pic with the elevated view as well as with what can be seen in the google map link posted previously... so far the pics in the annual reports and google map don't appear to match the management group pic with a two-story building behind the tower...

then again the annual report pics and google map could be quite outdated, so perhaps there is indeed another PSR different from the atcr33/sir-s seen in the annual reports...

so.... who here goes through clark airport a lot? and how many radomes do you see? ;D

adroth

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Re: Primary and Secondary Search Radars @ PH airports
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2016, 11:09:46 PM »
Mr R

here's a pic on the net (googling for "clark airport radar") showing a better view of the PSR-below-SSR-above mounting for the ATCR33 plus SIR-S combo without the radome:



Looks like I found your photo above. The roads in the pic seem to match. But this time, it has a radome



Lines up with SG99n1's contribution



Found a Flickr photo with a communications tower at Clark. That, methinks, is what Clark management folks were standing in front of. Having a dish that close to a radar didn't really make sense. But in front of a comms tower . . .
« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 11:14:56 PM by adroth »

r3mu511

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Re: Primary and Secondary Search Radars @ PH airports
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2016, 11:21:09 PM »
^yup @chief, in the first page of this thread I put up a post (http://defenseph.net/drp/index.php?topic=712.msg2403#msg2403) with a link to a google maps url with longitude/latitude coords which brings you right to that google map image... you might not have noticed the google maps url I put in that post :D

in the clark annual reports links in the previous posts by @SG, the pdfs also mention about the acquisition of the radome, and you can see in the pics in the annual reports how it went from without a radome to having a radome...

adroth

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Re: Primary and Secondary Search Radars @ PH airports
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2016, 11:31:15 PM »
Roger that. Missed it.  :D

r3mu511

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Re: Primary and Secondary Search Radars @ PH airports
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2016, 03:25:51 PM »
@chief, it seems that photo of the management in front of the sat dish and comms tower was taken at the CAAP air traffic management center and not in clark airport... in the news article link (provided earlier by @SG):

http://thestandard.com.ph/news/-provinces/224125/clark-airport-gets-caap-safety-nod.html

the occasion is the awarding of the safety rating for clark and the news article states that the awarding ceremony was done at CAAP...

you can also see the same sat dish and comms tower (as well as the building behind it and the concrete dividers/sidewalks) in this cnn phils video (dated from march 2016) featuring the ATC center of CAAP (video link posted earlier by @SG):

http://cnnphilippines.com/videos/2016/03/08/CAAP-upgrades-radar-system.html

on google maps you can also see where the management photo was taken at the CAAP facility:

https://www.google.com/maps/@14.512939,121.00684,102m/data=!3m1!1e3

it seems that the only difference is that by the time the management picture was taken (in the december 2016 news article) for that safety awarding event, the comms tower legs had been painted with a red/white color scheme...

so maybe the "thestandard.com.ph" news article just got the picture caption wrong by labeling it as "in front of clark"...

r3mu511

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Re: Primary and Secondary Search Radars @ PH airports
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2017, 10:42:35 PM »
a couple of historical procurements of civilian air traffic control (ATC) radars (emphasis mine):

http://www.academia.edu/4688978/ATC_Global_Hub_-The_Market_for_Civil_Surveillance_Radars_Market_Dynamics_Changing_THE_MARKET_FOR_CIVIL_ATC_SURVEILLANCE_RADARS_MARKET_DYNAMICS_CHANGING

Quote
Table three: civil ATC surveillance radar market 2010

The Philippines’ Department of Transportation andCommunications (DOTC) selected the Sumitomo/Thales JointVenture for the nationwide modernization of the Philippines’communication, navigation, surveillance and air trafficmanagement facilities and systems. Thales will provide five co-mounted STAR 2000 and RSM 970 S radars as well as five stand-alone RSM 970 S radars. These radars will be provided together with the TopSky – ATC system

these radars ordered in 2010 consisted of 5 sets of primary surveillance radar (PSR) which detect aircraft by direct reflection of emitted RF energy from the target (ie. "skin paint" or "skin reflection") co-mounted with secondary surveillance radar (SSR) which detect aircraft by receiving a transponder reply from the aircraft in response to an interrogation transmission:

Thales STAR-2000 PSR (spoiled-parabolic antenna below) with co-mounted RSM-970-S SSR (rectangular dipole array antenna above):



STAR-2000 range depends on transmitter power configuration and can be 60, 80, or 100 nm (note that this range is applicable to non-cooperative targets, ie. no transponder/beacon in the aircraft, hence can be used to detect unknown/opfor targets):

https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/default/files/asset/document/star2000_datasheet.pdf

one of these PSR+SSR combo sets can be found in Manila Airport (NAIA), and one can be found in Mactan-Cebu Airport (more on these airport radar sites in a followup post)...

---

aside from the 5 sets of co-mounted PSR+SSR systems, 5 stand-alone RSM-970-S SSR sets were also acquired:



RSM-970-S range is up to 256 nm (note that this range is on aircrafts which are replying via transponder/beacon, ie. cooperative targets, thus this range is not usable for unknown/opfor targets):

https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/default/files/asset/document/rsm970s_datasheet_0.pdf

of these stand-alone SSRs sets, one can be found in Davao airport and one in Bacolod airport (more on these airport radar sites in a followup post)...
« Last Edit: January 08, 2017, 10:47:40 PM by r3mu511 »

r3mu511

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Re: Primary and Secondary Search Radars @ PH airports
« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2017, 10:58:24 PM »
another historical civilian ATC procurement from the same source as the previous post (emphasis mine):

http://www.academia.edu/4688978/ATC_Global_Hub_-The_Market_for_Civil_Surveillance_Radars_Market_Dynamics_Changing_THE_MARKET_FOR_CIVIL_ATC_SURVEILLANCE_RADARS_MARKET_DYNAMICS_CHANGING

Quote
Table five: civil ATC surveillance radar market 2008

EADS Defence & Security has secured its first overseas civil contract for it's MSSR 2000 I secondary surveillance radar developed to meet both military and civil MSSR requirements. The Philippine Air Transportation Office (ATO) contracted EADS and local partner Intergrated Energy Systems & Resources (IESRI) to install the radar by mid-2008.

EADS MSSR-2000-I SSR (range: ~250 nm):



note that this is a cooperative-target radar which relies on a transponder/beacon reply from the aircraft in response to an interrogation transmission in order to detect the aircraft, thus it is not usable against unknown/opfor targets...

news announcement from EADS on this procurement:

http://www.airbusgroup.com/int/en/news-media/press-releases/Airbus-Group/Financial_Communication/2009/03/20090317_eads_defence_de_new_generation_air_traffic_control.html

Quote
EADS Defence & Security (DS) has established the most advanced secondary radar system for air traffic control (ATC) purposes in the Philippines. The Monopulse Secondary Surveillance Radar MSSR 2000 I delivered by Integrated Energy Systems & Resources Inc (IESRI) and Defence Electronics, an integrated business unit of DS, has been officially accepted by the Civil Aviation Authority of the Philippines (CAAP).

an MSSR-2000-I set like this was installed in the Tagaytay radar site on the taller tower - see pics on first page of the thread...

(more on the Tagaytay site as well as the shorter tower and it's radome in a followup post)
« Last Edit: January 08, 2017, 11:15:19 PM by r3mu511 »

r3mu511

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Re: Primary and Secondary Search Radars @ PH airports
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2017, 12:06:11 AM »
in relation to the procurements posted above, the following news article indicates the status of the ATC radars prior to the 2010 Thales orders (emphasis mine):

http://www.philstar.com/metro/571204/caap-installs-new-radar

Quote
CAAP installs new radar
By Rudy Santos  | Updated May 2, 2010 - 12:00am

MANILA, Philippines - A new P300-million radar covering the entire air space of the Philippines has been installed at the Civil Aviation Authority of the Philippines to replace an old system.

CAAP Director General Alfonso Cusi said the ALS 2000 would give air traffic controllers one million square miles of airspace to track down aircraft, compared with the old system’s limited radius of 250 nautical miles.

It will be integrated with four existing ground radar and 10 very high frequency radio equipment spread throughout Luzon, Visayas and Mindanao, he added.

these 4 airport primary (PSR) equipped radar sites would be the Manila (NAIA) airport (Toshiba and NEC radars prior to addition of 2010 ordered Thales radar), Clark airport (Selex radar from 2007), Mactan-Cebu airport (NEC radar prior to addition of 2010 ordered Thales radar), and Subic airport (ASR-9 radar)...

since these are primary (PSR) equipped airport approach radar sites, they do not rely on aircraft transponders/beacons and thus will be able to detect non-cooperative, unknown/opfor targets, though their detection ranges will likely be in the usual 60-100 nm ranges (depending on power configuration) typical of airport approach radars... these sets do have co-mounted SSR on them, but in regards to detection of unknown/opfor targets the PSR is what matters...

(more on these four airport radar sites in individual followup posts)

r3mu511

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Re: Primary and Secondary Search Radars @ PH airports
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2017, 12:13:31 AM »
(additional pre-2010 Thales procurement order information)

in contrast to the primary (PSR) radar sites (in the previous post) which serve as airport approach radars, there are also 3 secondary (SSR) radar sites which serve as en-route control radars: the previously mentioned Tagaytay site, a Majic Cebu site, and the Laoag airport site:

http://www.philstar.com/metro/505586/civil-aviation-authority-construct-manila-control-center

Quote
Civil Aviation Authority to construct Manila control center
 Updated September 17, 2009 - 12:00am

Ciron and the new radar console display would be able to receive signals from three long-range radars located in Laoag, Tagaytay and Cebu and process the inputs in Manila for a country-wide radar coverage of all incoming and outgoing flights within the Flight Information Region.

(note that the Majic Cebu site is different from the Mactan-Cebu airport site)

again these 3 sites are secondary SSR radars and thus work on cooperative-targets, ie. aircraft which have a transponder/beacon to reply to interrogation transmissions, thus they will not detect unknown/opfor targets... they do however have ranges on the order of ~250 nm for cooperative/transponder-equipped aircraft...

idealized coverage of these 3 SSR sites with respect to the Flight Information Region (FIR) handled by Manila Area Control Center (Manila ACC):



again this is idealized coverage of only cooperative/transponder aircraft...

(more on these SSR sites in individual followup posts)
« Last Edit: January 09, 2017, 12:17:33 AM by r3mu511 »

r3mu511

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Re: Primary and Secondary Search Radars @ PH airports
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2017, 12:48:38 AM »
most recent news article on status of ATC radars (emphasis mine):

http://www.rappler.com/business/157529-cns-atm-flight-management-caap

Quote
New world-class air traffic system ready by June – CAAP

By Rappler.com
Published Fri, Jan 6, 2017 1:00 PM

GROUND CONTROL. The project includes a central traffic control complex housed in the CAAP office in Manila, and 10 radar sites across the country. Photo courtesy of DOTr

MANILA, Philippines – The Civil Aviation Authority of the Philippines (CAAP) is off to a flying start this year as it announced the arrival of a new world-class air traffic system in a few months.

The government agency announced on Friday, January 6, that the new Communications Navigation Surveillance/Air Traffic Management (CNS/ATM) system will be operational by the end of June.

from what info I've found so far, I count the following radar sites (both PSR+SSR and solo-SSR):

Manila Airport  (2 sites)
Mactan-Cebu Airport (2 sites)
Davao Airport
Bacolod Airport
Laoag Airport
Clark Airport
Subic Airport (not sure if ASR-9 still operational, I know it was back in 2011 not sure now, so maybe exclude this one?)
Tagaytay site
Majic, Cebu site

so the above makes 8 locations (or 9 if we count Subic), but because both Manila and Mactan actually have two sites each, it totals 10 sites for all (or 11 if we count Subic)...

will post info on them in individual followup posts...

---

ones I'm not sure of yet (these were planned by CAAP but I haven't found info which has been implemented):

Kalibo Airport
Puerto Princesa Airport (might just be a planned ADS-B site?)
Zambaonga Airport
Quezon Palawan site

r3mu511

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Re: Primary and Secondary Search Radars @ PH airports
« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2017, 05:50:24 PM »
Manila Airport (NAIA) Radar

historical summary of manila radar center as published in CAAP website (emphasis mine):

http://ats.caap.gov.ph/index2/manilaapp_about.php

Quote
MANILA APPROACH CONTROL

1960. Manila Control Tower provides both approach and aerodrome control services, there was no Radar equipment at that time thus, conventional approach was used to provide separation for arrival and departure and to monitor other traffic.

1968. The USAF in Clark Air Force Base (Pampanga) lent C.A.A. MPN 13 mobile radar and trained selected ATCs in the use of radar for approach control service. The MPN 13 radar is an analog radar that gives only primary responses represented by small moving blips. These blips are the actual position of aircraft in flight.

1975. New facility building was built to house the new Italian made SELENIA radar and approach control service was separated from the old MIA control tower. ATCs were trained in the use of the new airport surveillance radar. The SELENIA ASR provides the controller a better way of identifying aircraft with the use of secondary blip (SSR) response aside from the primary.

1979. After using the SELENIA radar for four (4) years, the Japanese government gave us the TOSHIBA radar system (analog). Toshiba radar has similar features with that of Selenia radar. Both radar are selected on Mode A only, and no Mode C capability yet.

1982. An update TOSHIBA radar system was acquired, which introduces use of digital Alpha/Numeric system and mode C. The Alpha/Numeric TOSHIBA radar was digital and with capability to determine aircraft on mode C, the altitude response of an aircraft in-flight. The aircraft represented by blips. The data that the controller can read on the radar display are the following:
Aircraft call sign A/C ID
Aircraft speed reference to ground speed (knots)
Aircrafts altitude (feet)

2001. In view of the fast deterioration of the performance of Toshiba Radar system due to lack of spare parts and obsolescence, a new NEC Radar system was acquired from the Japanese Government as grant. Building construction and facility renovations started to house the NC Radar system. The new system has the following features among others:
Airport Surveillance Radar (ASR)
Mono-pulse Secondary Surveillance Radar (MSSR) and
Terminal Radar Data Processing Sub-System (TRDPS), modern type of alpha/numeric radar.

2003. October of this year the new NEC radar system was officially commissioned for operation.

The operations and training facilities of Manila Radar is located at Radar St., Merville Access Road, Pasay City.

this radar center is located near the NAIA runway:



this site can be seen in google maps here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@14.507935,121.024154,400m/data=!3m1!1e3



from the above info we can infer that the Toshiba and NEC radars were likely installed in the radomes pictured above...

---

as posted in an earlier post (http://defenseph.net/drp/index.php?topic=712.msg2859#msg2859), back in 2010 five sets of STAR-2000 primary radars with co-mounted RSM-970-S secondary radars were ordered, one of these was installed in NAIA also near the runway and a little way off from the main radar center complex:





this newer Thales radar can be seen in google maps here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@14.504351,121.019606,400m/data=!3m1!1e3



installation of this Thales radar took place between July 2014 and August 2015, as can be seen by comparing the following two videos of landings at NAIA:

July 2014: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVN_qstcNJQ

August 2015: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtzRPa6lT28

as this Thales installation at NAIA includes a STAR-2000 primary (PSR) radar, it does not depend on aircraft having a transponder/beacon and thus is capable of detecting and tracking unknown/opfor targets... range for this PSR would be either 60, 80, or 100 nm depending on the transmitter power configuration acquired as can be seen in the product catalog:

https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/default/files/asset/document/star2000_datasheet.pdf

note that for civilian air traffic control (ATC) purposes, the co-mounted RSM-970-S secondary (SSR) radar gives this site a range of up to 256 nm on transponder/beacon equipped aircraft:

https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/default/files/asset/document/rsm970s_datasheet_0.pdf
« Last Edit: January 09, 2017, 05:53:01 PM by r3mu511 »