Author Topic: Primary and Secondary Search Radars @ PH airports  (Read 59826 times)

adroth

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Re: Primary and Secondary Search Radars @ PH airports
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2017, 12:59:51 AM »
(additional pre-2010 Thales procurement order information)

in contrast to the primary (PSR) radar sites (in the previous post) which serve as airport approach radars, there are also 3 secondary (SSR) radar sites which serve as en-route control radars: the previously mentioned Tagaytay site, a Majic Cebu site, and the Laoag airport site:

Beautiful clarification Mr R  :). This thread is officially heads and shoulders better than the original Timawa airport radar thread.

It'll be interesting to see if the Majic facility corresponds to any of the facilities of the old US Air Base at Mactan.

====

Mactan airport's radars from the ground.

Interestingly, Google Maps obfuscated the building when viewed from the browser . . . but not when viewed from a mobile phone. These puppies are along General Aviation Road, so are public knowledge.



https://www.google.com/maps/place/Mactan-Cebu+International+Airport+(CEB)/@10.3088062,123.9847898,3a,60y,357.7h,104.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIcgW1_tWKPwmuGdVERfOAQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x33a997613bbd25df:0x8bd061454b8432c1!8m2!3d10.3106556!4d123.9802214
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 02:04:46 AM by adroth »

r3mu511

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Re: Primary and Secondary Search Radars @ PH airports
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2017, 12:43:46 PM »
^thanks for the pic @chief :D that's a much higher def pic than the one I saw, gives a lot more details to see when zoomed in...

the PSR+SSR combo on the left is the newer Thales STAR-2000 primary with top-mounted RSM-970-S secondary, while the one on the right is the older NEC NPG-560B primary with top-mounted NPG-905B secondary...

---

re. Majic Cebu: I honestly haven't found the exact location or any pics of the site, all I've found so far are references from CAAP (whether in news articles or bid announcements) to their SSR site at "Mt. Majic, Cebu"... there is an actual location Luay Majic, Cebu but I haven't found pics of the site so far... I'm hoping others would chime in on any info...

r3mu511

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Re: Primary and Secondary Search Radars @ PH airports
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2017, 02:20:56 PM »
(since the @chief already started on this one :D )

Mactan-Cebu Airport Radar

prior to the 2010 Thales order for PSR and SSR sets (posted here: http://defenseph.net/drp/index.php?topic=712.msg2859#msg2859), this airport had an existing primary+secondary setup as can be seen in this 2009 parts/service bid request for proposals (emphasis mine):

http://www.dgmarket.com/tenders/np-notice.do?noticeId=4754023

Quote
Replacement of Mactan PSR/SSR Antenna Rotary Joint at Mactan-Cebu International Airport
Request For Proposals

General Information
Country:     Philippines
City/Locality:     Metro Manila
Notice/Contract Number:     phl:1090224
Publication Date:     Dec 24, 2009
Deadline     Jan 20, 2010
Original Language:     English
Goods, Works and Services
Communications equipment 

Please see attached Approved budget: PHP 4,725,000.00 Original notice: http://www.philgeps.net/GEPS/Tender/PrintableBidNoticeAbstractUI.aspx?refid=1090224

an indication of the type of PSR+SSR installed can be seen in the following resume of a technician who worked at Mactan from 2009 to 2011 (emphasis mine):

https://people.bayt.com/dennis-rara/

Quote
Maintains the following Airport Surveillance Equipments:

1. NEC NPG-560B Airport Surveillance Radar

...

2. NEC NPG-905B Secondary Surveillance Radar

looking at the pic posted by @chiefA in the previous post (NEC radar is the one on the right), as well as the following pic (NEC radar is the one in the foreground):



and comparing to the NEC website picture of it's current PSR and SSR products:

http://www.nec.com/en/global/solutions/cns-atm/surveillance/asr.html
http://www.nec.com/en/global/solutions/cns-atm/surveillance/ssr.html



one can see the similarity in antenna and feed arm structure (ie. the vertical girders of the antenna frame, as well as the girder supporting the feed arm, both of which feature distinctive holes in the metal frame)... zooming in on the google map street view in the url provided by @chiefA in the previous post will also show the "NEC" label on the antenna face...

from the NEC product website, range for the current PSR product given at either 60 or 80 nm (depending on transmitter power and antenna gain configuration - see product details in NEC link above)... as this is a primary radar, this would be applicable to unknown/opfor targets...

while the range of the SSR for transponder/beacon-equipped aircraft is either 60, 100, or 250 nm, note that these ranges would not be applicable for unknown/opfor targets...

(note that these ranges are for the current NEC products whereas the one at Mactan is a slightly older product)

---

similar to the Manila airport, Mactan also received one of the newer Thales PSR+SSR combo sets ordered back in 2010 (as shown in an earlier post: http://defenseph.net/drp/index.php?topic=712.msg2859#msg2859)... this newer PSR+SSR can be seen in the left of the pic posted by @chiefA in the previous post, as well as in the background in the pic above...

it can be seen that this newer Mactan PSR+SSR is indeed a STAR-2000 and RSM-970-S combo by comparison to the Thales product image (as also posted in an earlier post: http://defenseph.net/drp/index.php?topic=712.msg2859#msg2859:

(note the distinctive slant to the feed horn support structure plates as well as the tubular shape of the feed support arms, also the method of mounting the SSR above the PSR with the solid rectangular support right beneath a V-shaped support with a prominent vertical bar in the center)



this Thales PSR+SSR set was installed sometime between May 2015 and June 2016 as can be seen by a comparison of the following videos of landings at Mactan airport:

May 2015: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1wdBMZvNWQ

June 2016: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wPUnP9lr7A

---

the two radar sites at Mactan can be seen while landing from the runway (NEC on the left side of pic, Thales on the right):



---

and can also be seen in google maps here (NEC on the right side of pic, Thales on the left):

https://www.google.com/maps/@10.309219,123.984816,400m/data=!3m1!1e3



adroth

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Re: Primary and Secondary Search Radars @ PH airports
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2017, 03:00:22 PM »
looking at the pic posted by @chiefA in the previous post (NEC radar is the one on the right), as well as the following pic (NEC radar is the one in the foreground):

Mr R,

What would be the point of having two radars in such close proximity? Is one actually inactive?

r3mu511

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Re: Primary and Secondary Search Radars @ PH airports
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2017, 03:23:44 PM »
^@chief, in the youtube video link I posted for the June 2016 landing clip, it shows both radars in operation (ie. rotating)...

my guess would be:

1) NEC radar age - we know from the 2009 parts bid request that the NEC set was installed prior to that date so the NEC radar must be around at least 8 yrs old (and possibly even older)... as an aside: in a Clark airport related document on the Selex set in Clark the projected lifespan of that set was 15 years... so if the NEC radar is older than 8 years that may be one reason to put in the newer Thales set... similarly Manila's NEC (and Toshiba) radars are much older, hence the newer Thales set installed there as well...

2) the Thales radar was part of CAAP's CNS-ATM project which includes the Thales "TopSky" air traffic management (ATM) system, so perhaps to feed in PSR+SSR tracks from Mactan into TopSky was easier done using the Thales radar (as opposed to some one-off development work to try and get an 8+ year old NEC radar to feed into the TopSky ATM system)...

(I would have also thought "for backup purposes" was another reason, but seeing that vid clip with both radars operating/turning made me wonder about the "backup" reason)

---

(tongue in cheek) these are civilian ATC radars so I don't think multiple radars to complicate opfor ECM efforts (ie. more power required, greater frequency variation, etc.) was a concern ;D
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 03:27:30 PM by r3mu511 »

adroth

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Re: Primary and Secondary Search Radars @ PH airports
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2017, 09:41:01 AM »
(since the @chief already started on this one :D )

As a precaution I ran this thread by a number of current and ex-service Timawans / DefensePH-ers . . . and the response thus far has been fine. These are all open source items, and this awareness benefits education.

r3mu511

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Re: Primary and Secondary Search Radars @ PH airports
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2017, 04:25:22 PM »
^roger that @chief, everything posted is all open internet sources...

r3mu511

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Re: Primary and Secondary Search Radars @ PH airports
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2017, 06:50:27 PM »
Bacolod Airport Radar: Secondary (SSR)

prior to the 2010 Thales procurement order for PSR and SSR sets, Bacolod airport was not one of the 4 airports with an existing radar (as posted in an earlier post)...

as part of the Thales procurement, 5 sets of standalone RSM-970-S secondary (SSR) radar were acquired:



as this is a secondary (SSR) radar, it's ~256 nm surveillance capability is dependent on aircraft having a transponder/beacon to reply to interrogation transmissions from the radar... thus it is not capable of detecting/tracking unknown or opfor targets...

---

one of these radars was then installed in Bacolod airport at a site near the runway, as can be seen here:



in google maps the site can be seen here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@10.772924,123.011940,400m/data=!3m1!1e3



this site installation was performed between Feb 2015 and Jun 2016 as can be seen by comparing the following airplane landing video clips:

Feb 2015: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXma2cHYwsM

June 2016: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ6cMKZyZGg

(edit: 01/15/17)

google street view image:

https://www.google.com.ph/maps/@10.7732961,123.0114672,3a,37.5y,127.62h,100.36t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2A0jwzblYVa78FBr3jRntw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

« Last Edit: January 15, 2017, 12:57:08 PM by r3mu511 »

r3mu511

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Re: Primary and Secondary Search Radars @ PH airports
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2017, 03:05:29 PM »
Davao Airport Radar: Secondary (SSR)

similar to Bacolod airport, the Davao site was not one of the existing four primary (PSR) radar equipped airports prior to the 2010 Thales procurement order...

part of this Thales procurement were 5 sets of standalone RSM-970-S secondary (SSR) radars which can track transponder/beacon-equipped aircraft up to a range of 256 nm, but can not be used to detect unknown/opfor targets:



one of these secondary radar sets was installed at Davao airport, but unlike the Bacolod installation, the Davao radar site was not situated directly beside the runway but was instead placed off to the side and slightly behind the airport and nearby structures... thus the radar site is best viewed from the air, as can be seen in the following image stills from aircraft takeoff video clips:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vquLskN17pM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG_oGcfR6e8





while in google maps this radar site can be seen here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@7.136842,125.649731,400m/data=!3m1!1e3



(edit: 01/15/17)

google street view image:

https://www.google.com.ph/maps/@7.138289,125.6487542,3a,15y,146.53h,90.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suDmu0UGpz83FopXz3dxupw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

« Last Edit: January 15, 2017, 01:05:20 PM by r3mu511 »

SG99n1

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Re: Primary and Secondary Search Radars @ PH airports
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2017, 07:40:38 PM »
Hi R3m, check PM.
I say jump! You say how high?

SG99n1

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Re: Primary and Secondary Search Radars @ PH airports
« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2017, 09:36:54 PM »
part of this Thales procurement were 5 sets of standalone RSM-970-S secondary (SSR) radars which can track transponder/beacon-equipped aircraft up to a range of 256 nm, but can not be used detect unknown/opfor targets:

https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/default/files/asset/document/Global%20Surveillance%20Solution%20Booklet.pdf

interesting line here..

Contrary to the PSR, the SSR requires aircraft to be fitted with a transponder onboard. With its continually rotating
antenna, the SSR will send out an energy beam which will interrogate aircraft. When the energy beam hits an aircraft, a coded reply will be sent back to the radar. This reply contains the aircraft’s identification, its altitude and, depending on the type of
transponder on board, additional information.
However, the SSR does not rely on the transponder for the position of the aircraft. It determines this
itself by measuring the time it takes for the beam to be reflected back to the radar and the direction the reflection
comes back from.
The SSR then transmits all this information to the air traffic control system where it is
displayed as an aircraft label. Secondary radars transmit pulses on 1030 Mhz to trigger transponders installed in aircraft to respond on 1090 Mhz.
----
help me understand the highlighted part.
Radar can detect aircraft, if transponder is on.Complete data will be sent back.. if no transponder is on..the only data the radar will give is the position of the unknown aircraft by way of the beam bouncing back and forth?
TYIA
I say jump! You say how high?

r3mu511

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Re: Primary and Secondary Search Radars @ PH airports
« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2017, 09:52:46 PM »
^hehe, replied to your PM on that point already @SG ;D

check out the line above that:

Quote
Contrary to the PSR, the SSR requires aircraft to be fitted with a transponder onboard.

the SSR doesn't use the transponder data to determine the aircraft position because the SSR is doing it by itself by timing the delay between when it transmitted the interrogation on 1090 MHz and when it received the reply on 1030 MHz... that time delay multiplied by the speed of light is used to calculate the distance to the aircraft (without needing to use the data from the transponder)...

similarly the bearing (angle) of the aircraft is determined directly by the SSR itself by noting where it's antenna was pointing when it received the 1090 MHz reply...

but like the quoted line form the doc says, "the SSR requires aircraft to be fitted with a transponder onboard", because without a transponder the SSR would not receive any 1090 MHz reply and without that reply it won't be able to compute the aircraft's distance and bearing...

note also in the page right before the one you qoute, in that page it is discussing the primary radar (PSR), where it says:

Quote
The undisputable advantage of the PSR is that it detects all aircraft in range regardless of aircraft on-board equipment. This is referred to as independent surveillance. This means that no aircraft can remain invisible to air traffic controllers. This is the only type of technology today to offer this level of safety and security.

so from the above two entries on PSR and SSR, you'll notice that it's only with a primary radar (PSR) that an aircraft without a transponder (eg. like an unknown or opfor target) can be detected...

SG99n1

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Re: Primary and Secondary Search Radars @ PH airports
« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2017, 10:04:44 PM »
^hehe, replied to your PM on that point already @SG ;D

check out the line above that:

Quote
Contrary to the PSR, the SSR requires aircraft to be fitted with a transponder onboard.

the SSR doesn't use the transponder data to determine the aircraft position because the SSR is doing it by itself by timing the delay between when it transmitted the interrogation on 1090 MHz and when it received the reply on 1030 MHz... that time delay multiplied by the speed of light is used to calculate the distance to the aircraft (without needing to use the data from the transponder)...

similarly the bearing (angle) of the aircraft is determined directly by the SSR itself by noting where it's antenna was pointing when it received the 1090 MHz reply...

but like the quoted line form the doc says, "the SSR requires aircraft to be fitted with a transponder onboard", because without a transponder the SSR would not receive any 1090 MHz reply and without that reply it won't be able to compute the aircraft's distance and bearing...

note also in the page right before the one you qoute, in that page it is discussing the primary radar (PSR), where it says:

Quote
The undisputable advantage of the PSR is that it detects all aircraft in range regardless of aircraft on-board equipment. This is referred to as independent surveillance. This means that no aircraft can remain invisible to air traffic controllers. This is the only type of technology today to offer this level of safety and security.

so from the above two entries on PSR and SSR, you'll notice that it's only with a primary radar (PSR) that an aircraft without a transponder (eg. like an unknown or opfor target) can be detected...

yes thanks. it was just a matter of a minute.  ;D
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adroth

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Re: Primary and Secondary Search Radars @ PH airports
« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2017, 04:09:31 AM »
help me understand the highlighted part.
Radar can detect aircraft, if transponder is on.Complete data will be sent back.. if no transponder is on..the only data the radar will give is the position of the unknown aircraft by way of the beam bouncing back and forth?
TYIA

In addition to Mr R's excellent summary, there's also an article about the history and differences between PSR and SSR on the first page:

http://defenseph.net/drp/index.php?topic=712.msg1721#msg1721

r3mu511

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Re: Primary and Secondary Search Radars @ PH airports
« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2017, 07:39:29 PM »
(continuing with internet open source information)

Laoag Airport Radar: Secondary (SSR)

this secondary (SSR) radar site was one of the 3 enroute radar sites which existed prior to the 2010 Thales procurement order, as was seen in an earlier post concerning these 3 long-range enroute radars (emphasis mine):

http://www.philstar.com/metro/505586/civil-aviation-authority-construct-manila-control-center

Quote
Civil Aviation Authority to construct Manila control center
 Updated September 17, 2009
...
Ciron and the new radar console display would be able to receive signals from three long-range radars located in Laoag, Tagaytay and Cebu and process the inputs in Manila for a country-wide radar coverage of all incoming and outgoing flights within the Flight Information Region.

and as also can be seen in this CAAP bid request for proposals from 2009 (emphasis mine):

http://www.dgmarket.com/tenders/np-notice.do?noticeId=4072429

Quote
Replacement of Existing Manila Area Control Center (ACC) System
Request For Proposals
...
Publication Date:     Jun 26, 2009
...
8. Integration of existing SSRs in Laoag, Tagaytay and Mt. Majic, Cebu from AFC existing available protocol into the ATC automation system;

as for the brand and type of SSR installed here, the only reference I have seen so far comes from the skyscrapercity "philippine airlines & airports" sub-forum where a lot of civilian aviation enthusiasts and industry types appear to congregate (one can probably say that forum is to the civilian aviation industry what Timawa is to philippine defense topics)...

in that aviation-oriented forum, an old thread mentioned that the Laoag SSR (as well as the Majic Cebu SSR) were installed in the mid-1990s, were procured from Thomson-CSF (now Thales), and were an older model of the RSM series (ie. the same series which also includes the current RSM-970-S SSR models which were recently procured by CAAP as part of their 2010 Thales order)...

and as this is a secondary (SSR) radar, it relies on transponders/beacons in order to detect and track aircraft, and hence will not be able to detect unknown/opfor targets...

---

as for the site's location, the Laoag secondary (SSR) radar is situated slightly behind the airport terminal and is visible from the runway as can be seen here:



and as seen in the following rather dated (ie. 2-3 years old) video clips of landings/takeoffs at the airport:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HtxkiVXCDw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYm8cWLvh_8

the most recent video clip I found was of a Jan 2016 landing of a light private plane, where one can just makeout the SSR just as the plane touches down:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cHNrxRl9IM

---

in google maps the Laoag radar site can be seen here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@18.182835,120.535268,400m/data=!3m1!1e3



and in google street view can be seen here (as viewed from a public road behind the airport):

https://www.google.com/maps/@18.1832389,120.5365572,3a,75y,260.73h,77.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQLuoalH6VAHZDnDaFNJT0A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656



one will notice the contruction activity around the radar site, and this is actually part of the CAAP's CNS-ATM project (of which the 2010 Thales order is a part)... considering that the original SSR at this site is quite old, it's probably to be expected that a replacement for this site would be part of CAAP's overall project...

in fact in google street view one can see the following sign regarding this project:



and viewed from the above, the construction site beside the existing SSR site can be seen in google maps:



if one compares the form of the building being constructed (on the right side of image) with the ones at the Bacolod and Davao airport SSR sites, one can see the similarity:

Bacolod airport radar site:



Davao airport radar site:



and considering that the google images are dated from Feb 2016, the new site at Laoag airport may already be complete, though I have not yet been able to find new images or video clips of the new site... so if anyone has found any updated pictures or videos, pls. do post it in the thread...