Author Topic: PA Light Tank Acquisition Programme  (Read 12634 times)

eagle from davao

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Re: PA Light Tank Acquisition Programme
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2020, 12:49:01 PM »
In case of comparison between Mk 19 40mm x53mm grenade round to 60 mm mortar round;

40x53mm round limitations and capabilities;

fix round means , propellant charge are fixed. only the elevation can be adjusted for hit desired range. explosive charge is between 38 grams to 40 grams. but can be fired successively to compensate for its limited killing radius. the common setup for mk 19 maximum elevation is 45 deg. but if engineers can modify mk 19 to elevate to 85 deg. this is an added capability.

60mm mortar round limitations and capabilities;

two factors to hit desired range- by increasing charge propellant and adjusting elevation. it is more flexible compared to mk 19. the common explosive charge between 170 grams to 250 grams for long range series. killing radius between 10 meters to 12 meters.

If PA can install mk 19 and at the same time 60mm mortar , this is a great combination. one can bridge the limits of the other , to create an overlapping field of fire and can engage different targets both direct and indirect fire , these complements the 105mm main gun with  0.50 cal HMG and 7.62mm GPMG.  with these combinations, sabra is a formidable platform .
If it can add sniper detection system and  hopefully active protection system . it can handle MOUT, open ,forested and anti-amphibious battlefield conditions.
I know this is a stretch on what AFP have in mind. Desiring these  weapon add-ons step-up the sabra capabilities.


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Re: PA Light Tank Acquisition Programme
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2020, 04:22:37 PM »
There is a term you would do well to learn: feature creep.

Adding more features to a system originally designed to do a particular task is not necessarily a good thing. Especially if it detracts from its intended doctrinal and practical use.

Sometimes even if it seems like a logical upgrade, there are such things as unintended consequences. Case in point: The Belgian military's mid-life upgrade of their Pandur APCs. After the addition of several seemingly logical features to their existing fleet (new armor, air conditioning, etc.), it turned out that the upgrades made the vehicles more difficult for the crews to use or even get in or out of.

The PA's light tanks/tank destroyers have a job: provide direct fire support in case it is needed. If there is a target that needs to be hit by indirect fire, then that's a job for the grenadiers, mortars, artillery or even air support. That's what the networked communications systems included are for: proper coordination of combined arms. The tankers don't need to be distracted from their main job.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2020, 09:42:50 PM by girder »

eagle from davao

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Re: PA Light Tank Acquisition Programme
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2021, 02:10:36 PM »
Combat Drone Footage in Marawi Siege;

At the start of the video, there are two armored assets deployed . One is simba at the road and one M113 at vacant lot.
Troops asked for mortar fire support . We can heard that Army squads deployed nearby ready to engage. We can hear that at least one  81mm mortar team is providing fire support. We can also observed that terrorist team was inside the burnout building . Each building was designated with number as target identification and grid coordinates calculation . We can observed that terrorist avoids exposed buildings(along the street or roads) where direct fire from simba and M113 can be effective. The most effective fire support here is the mortar team or howitzer. But in this footage, we can observe mortar or indirect fire is the most effective in cluster of concrete building. The drone is giving a valuable real time target identification and acquisition and damage assessment including real time intel for the ground troops.

The coordination between mortar team and drone observers(including the CO) is good . The mortar shots were adjusted to the current location of the terrorist. Some were off by 10 to 20 meters but correction done ,the next shots close to 5 meters to the target.

The next videos, shows that  terrorist are deployed in the cornfield to flank attack the deployed APC. The APC and troops are prudent(cautious) in their return fire to avoid stray rounds . If the APC have mark 19 grenade launcher or 60mm mortar mounted, it can lobbed accurate fire . However, one observer suggest to his CO for mortar fire and the CO assures that. But the mortar fire have to be coordinated to higher ups for approval. The video footage finished without the mortar requested not yet provided. The scenario would be better if mark 19 RCWS or 60mm mortar on the APC are available. The response time is shorter and can neutralize the terrorist immediately.  The FA-50 bomb run were accurate and devastating.

IMHO , this situation can be improved further if
1] use a precision guided mortar round-this limits the rounds to be fired. Drone can be installed with LASER designator to point the exact target. I dont know if this is available in Army now or still being planned or pending in the procurement.
2] procure a 120mm mortar that can do more damage- build-up area such as concrete walls and floors lessens the effect of 81mm or 60mm round.But still 81mm or 60mm are cheaper for smaller but more numerous targets. Aside from HE rounds , mortars can deliver smoke, WP and illumination round.
3] armored personnel or simba mounted with 81mm or 60mm mortar (aside from direct fire weapons)can provide more flexible and even distribution of  indirect  fire support to  supporting assault teams . The two armored assets are being standby to provide direct fire once needed. If would be better if these armored assets have mortar , it can actively provide lobbed mortar bombs with the comms on the drone and assault troops already engage with the terrorist.
4] The troops must used two drones ,one on standby and one deployed. In case the drone is low batt, the standby can continue the visual intel . The quadrocopter drone is better than wing type because it can provide steady and continous the visual intel. It can  provide accurate coordinates to mortar or howitzer, for its hovering capabilities.

In relation to our topic;
1] Indirect fire capability(mortar or mark 19)for armored assets are ideal for MOUT and even on open terrain.
2] 120 mm mortar is a great in MOUT considering the firepower over concrete walls, floors ,roofs and concrete barriers to effectively neutralize opposing forces.
3] The 105mm direct fire cannon would be great for buildings along the streets or roads or open. But for buildings inside the block, indirect fire is effective.

A indirect fire capability for Sabra Tank meets the needs of AFP especially in MOUT as shown in the drone combat video  footages.

« Last Edit: January 28, 2021, 02:26:22 PM by eagle from davao »


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Re: PA Light Tank Acquisition Programme
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2021, 08:52:40 AM »
Did the Notice to proceed already awarded to Elbit?

Fourth country selects ASCOD tracked vehicle platform

Posted on 2021-01-26

General Dynamics European Land Systems (GDELS) has been awarded a contract from Elbit Systems for ASCOD tracked armored vehicles. The vehicles will be outfitted with the latest 105mm large-caliber turret and delivered to an Asian-Pacific customer over a period of three years.

With its modular design and open system architecture, the ASCOD can be outfitted easily for multiple roles, including as a Light Tank (LT) or Medium Main Battle Tank (MMBT), and outfitted with large-caliber cannons up to 120mm. Three other nations -- Austria, Spain, and the United Kingdom – have already selected the ASCOD as their preferred tracked armored vehicle platform. The vehicles for the fourth customer will be branded with the name Sabrah.

“We are delighted that the first customer outside of Europe selected our ASCOD as their future Light Tank platform,” said Dr. Thomas Kauffmann, Vice President of International Business & Services for GDELS. “It indicates a clear trend in the armored vehicle segment to medium weight (≤ MLC 50) and multi-role platforms, which provide modern armies with commonality, interoperability, flexibility, as well as advanced military mobility, while significantly reducing logistic complexity and cost of ownership.”

“With this contract, the number of ASCOD vehicles in service or under contract reach 1,000 units, proof of the innovation of the system and its capability to adapt to all customers´ needs. The modular design and open architecture of ASCOD is a great example for this advanced approach,” Kauffmann said.


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Re: PA Light Tank Acquisition Programme
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2021, 05:38:14 AM »
Does anyone have the weight of ASCOD 2? I am unable to find it on open source websites. Wikipedia has it at 45 Tons (citation needed), but it would be too heavy to be a light tank.
In this link it says

In its original proposal, Elbit Systems offered a version of the ASCOD 2 medium main battle tank (MMBT) and the Pandur II tank destroyer....

Elbit Systems revised its offer and proposed the new Sabrah light tank instead, abandoning the Hanwha-Otokar turret and developing a new turret with the assistance of the Merkava tank directorate and a South African turret manufacturer. The new light tank still uses ASCOD 2 and Pandur II as platforms, but now with a higher elevation arc and auto loading system compatible with those found on the K21-105, Amra 105 and Harimau MT.

So they revised the turret with a higher elevation but did not say why it was redesignated as a light tank. I believe the gun is the same size so how did they shave off the extra weight.


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Re: PA Light Tank Acquisition Programme
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2022, 11:47:10 AM »
Military to own first ‘real’ tanks by year-end
By: Maria Adelaida Calayag - @inquirerdotnet
Philipine Daily Inquirer / 05:15 AM December 20, 2021

TARLAC CITY, Tarlac, Philippines — For the first time, the Armed Forces of the Philippines will get its hands on its first “real” and “modern tanks in the postwar era,” Army officials said on Sunday.
This after the AFP announced it was expecting the delivery this month of 20 Israeli light tanks that would be turned over to the to the Philippine Army’s Armor Division based in Camp O’Donnell in Capas town, Tarlac province.

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