Author Topic: Hoax: In the 60s, the AFP was the most powerful military in Asia outside Japan  (Read 29351 times)

adroth

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Administrator's note: A companion thread for this discussion is available on the forum's FB extension here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/rpdefense/permalink/1111738445578668/


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Every now and then, this pile of carabao crap of a claim gets shoveled on to various fora and the forum's FB extension. Complete with historically accurate, but out-of-context photos like this. (Photo c/o of the Francis Neri albums)



This meme is often perpetuated by well meaning, but ultimately misguided, posters desperately looking to the the past -- even an imagined one -- for something to brag about. Other perpetrators of this myth are Marcos fanbois with a historical-revisionist agenda.

The old forum had a rich thread outlining why this claim was so hopelessly divorced from reality that Timawans could readily use for fact checks. Time to rebuild this myth-busting resource.

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Here are a few starter tid bits.

Vietnam

The AFP has never had a full-fledged SAM-based air defense system. Contrast that Vietnam which had been shooting down USAF and USN aircraft even at the height of the PAF's glory days in the 60s. Photo from: http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/Visit/MuseumExhibits/FactSheets/Display/tabid/509/Article/196037/sa-2-surface-to-air-missile.aspx



Indonesia

The Philippine Navy has NEVER operated submarines. In contrast, the oldest submarine force in SEA belongs to Indonesia, which has been operating submarines since 1959. Photo from (http://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2015/11/indonesian-submarine-history-and-youtube.html)



Thailand

At its height, the Philippines operated 7 M-41 Walker Bulldog light tanks which were armed with a high-velocity 76mm gun. Arguably the most powerful gun in the history of the Philippine Army. In contrast, Thailand operated 200 of these vehicles.



« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 10:27:08 AM by adroth »

adroth

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« Last Edit: June 10, 2018, 06:19:58 AM by adroth »

adroth

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An SME posting on this thread's companion post on the FB extension

https://www.facebook.com/groups/rpdefense/permalink/1111738445578668/?comment_id=1111762632242916&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R5%22%7D



There were few places more emblematic of the "proxy conflict" of the Cold War than the Vietnam War. With both superpowers equipping their respective allies

South Vietnam



North Vietnam



Photo c/o: https://warisboring.com/the-legend-of-the-vietnam-wars-mystery-fighter-ace-610c46e91474#.s4lb61cfs

It is also worth noting that North Vietnam had 2nd generation MBTs and used them in the Battle for Saigon. The AFP has never had MBTs in its inventory.



FILE - In this April 30, 1975 file photo, a North Vietnamese tank rolls through the gates of the Presidential Palace in Saigon, signifying the fall of South Vietnam. The war ended on April 30, 1975, with the fall of Saigon, now known as Ho Chi Minh City, to communist troops from the north. (AP Photo/File)

adroth

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Some of the folks who swallowed the hoax hook, line, and sinker, are actually defending this fairy tale. Hopefully SIPRI can help them out.

This one is for Indonesia . . . just for the Russian section of their listing from 1950 to 1975




Raider1114

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Indonesian Air Force, the first user of C-130B Hercules (outside USAF) in 1960 -Ivan tenges Fallback Point Defense Review
"The Soldier Trade, if it is to mean anything at all, has to be anchored to an unshakable code of honour. Otherwise, those of us who follow the drums become nothing more than a bunch of hired assassins walking around in gaudy clothes . . . a disgrace to God and mankind." - Carl von Clausewitz, 1832

Raider1114

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The Indonesian Police Ranger Regiment is the first overseas user of US made AR-15 in 1960. Photo showing personnel of the Indonesian Police Ranger using AR-15 boarding a boat for infiltration mission during West Papua conflict with Dutch military in 1961. - Ivan tenges Fallback Point Defense Review
"The Soldier Trade, if it is to mean anything at all, has to be anchored to an unshakable code of honour. Otherwise, those of us who follow the drums become nothing more than a bunch of hired assassins walking around in gaudy clothes . . . a disgrace to God and mankind." - Carl von Clausewitz, 1832

Raider1114

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Yudhistira Oktavianta - Fallback Point Defense Review

KRI Irian 201 Sverdlov-class Cruiser
Lot of information that the Navy of the Republic of Indonesia (TNI AL) ever had a cruiser (light cruiser class) namely KRI Irian hull number 201 as one of the mainstays that was held in a military campaign to seize back the West Irian (Papua) of power Netherlands. KRI Irian at that time was one of the biggest ship in the Asian region.
Until now there has been no country in Southeast Asia never had a cruiser than Indonesia. The legendary cruiser is KRI Irian, the Indonesian government deliberately brought in liberation of West Irian (Papua).
Starting from modernizing weapons systems that pioneered Maj. AH Nasution (at that time as Minister for defense) since 1957 to the United States to apply for a loan for the purchase of defense equipment, cold response, however, the group went to Moscow with the same intention. In the land of Red Bear proposals are approved. With the warming of relations between Indonesia and the Netherlands over West Irian issue, then in early 1960, Nikita Khrushchev visited Jakarta and approve the purchase agreement line of defense equipment from the Soviet Union on the basis of long-term loans.
KRI Irian was Sverdlov class cruiser with the naming code soviet Project 68-bis. This type of ship is the last ship of conventional explorers made to the Soviet Navy, 13 vessels completed before Nikita Khrushchev to stop this program because the ship was considered old-fashioned kind with the advent of missiles (guided missiles).
Ships of this type is the development and a larger version of Chapayev class cruiser. Resemblance to ship KRI Irian Chapayev class is on the main weapon, machining, and side protection. While the difference lies in the capacity more fuel for more mileage, wholly welded hull, underwater protection better, anti-aircraft artillery and radar better better anyway.
History KRI Irian
Ship KRI Irian formerly Ordzhonikidze (Орджоникидзе) (Object 055) from the Baltic fleet purchased by the Indonesian government in 1962. Currently it is the largest ship KRI Irian southern hemisphere. This vessel is actively used for the preparation of West Irian.
This ship was made at the Admiralty Yard, Leningrad. The first keel laying took place on October 9, 1949, the ship was launched on 17 September 1950, and the first time the ship operated on June 30, 1952.
Preparation Operation in Indonesia
On January 11, 1961 the Soviet government began to issue instructions to the Central Design Bureau # 17 to modify the order Ordzhonikidze ideal operating in the tropics. Large-scale modernization done to make this ship can operate at a temperature of +40 ° C, humidity 95%, and a water temperature of +30 ° C.
But representatives of the Indonesian Navy who then visited the city Baltiisk stated that they were not able to bear the cost of such a project. Modernization eventually transferred to the installation of a more powerful diesel generators to drive additional ventilator.
On February 14, 1961 the ship arrived in Sevastopol and on 5 April 1962 this ship begin sea trials. At that time the Indonesian crew of this ship has been formed and there on the boat. This boat mechanic Mr Yatijan, later became head of the Department of the Navy Engineering. So are a lot of other sailors, at a later date that is able to occupy many important positions.
Operational
Come to Surabaya on August 5, 1962 and was declared out of the official Soviet Navy on January 24, 1963. The Soviet Union never sold ships with this heavy weight to other countries except for Indonesia. Navy of the Republic of Indonesia who had never previously had their own fleet, learn to operate the ships sophisticated and expensive it by trial and error / trial and error.
In November 1962 recorded a diesel submarine damaged due to collision when rising to the surface, a destroyer damaged and 3 of 6 KRI Irian broken boiler. Hot temperatures and high humidity negative effect on the Navy fleet, resulting in a lot of equipment that can not operate optimally. On the other hand, the presence of these vessels make the Dutch Navy drastically reduce its presence in the waters of West Irian.
Improvement
In 1964 the explorer ship has completely lost its operational efficiency and decided to send KRI Irian to Vladivostok for repairs. At KRI Irian until March 1964 in Plant Dalzavod. Soviet sailors and technicians were surprised to see the condition of the ship and many small improvements that should have been done by the crew was not done. They are also interested in the slight modifications made to the Navy clothing change room into a prayer room (something which may not happen in a communist country).
Reassignment
After the repair was completed in August 1964 with an escort boat to Surabaya.. A year later (1965) a change of government, practical government authority in the hands of Suharto. Suharto attention to the Navy is very different than Sukarno. The ship was allowed to lie fallow in Surabaya, sometimes used as a prison for political opponents of Suharto.
Retired
There are several versions about the history of KRI Irian after the G-30 (assassinated six Indonesian Army generals in an abortive coup d'état.):
The first version says that in 1970, KRI Irian was so badly neglected until it begins to fill with water. No one cared to save these Ship. So at the time served as a Navy Chief Admiral Sudomo, the KRI Irian was scrapined in Taiwan in 1972 by reason of a chronic shortage of component parts.
The second version, according Hendro Subroto, warships made just four of these are sold to Japan after the stripped down its weapons. "Whereas in Tanjung Priok there are two parts warehouses. But because of previous treatments handled the Russians, after Gestapu, we do not have engineers anymore," said Hendro.
>Common Characteristics :
Weight: 13,600 T standard, 16,640 full load T
Length: 210 m overall, 205 m waterline
Width: 22 m
Draft: 6.9 m
>Protective armor :
The main armored belt: 100 mm
Stern: 32 mm
Deck: 50 mm
House deck: 130 mm
The main cannon shell: 175 mm
>Electronic Equipment
Radar:
Air Search Radar Gyus-2
Ryf sea surface search radar
Neptun radar navigation
Sonar:
Tamir-5N mounted in hull
Other:
Machta ECM (Electronic Counter Measures)
>Artillery KRI Irian :
The main weapon is the fruit of the KRI Irian 4 turret, where each turret contains 3 cannon measuring 6 inches. For a total of 6-inch 12-caliber guns on the deck.
Torpedo Tubes 10 anti-submarine caliber 533 mm
12 Fruit Cannon type 57 cal B-38 Caliber 15.2 cm (6 front, 6 Rear)
12 Fruit double Cannon type 56 cal Model 1934 6 (twin)-SM 5-1 mounts Caliber 10 cm
32 Fruit canon multi function caliber 3.7 cm
4 Fruit triple Mk5-bis turrets gun caliber 20 mm (for the purposes of anti-air attack)
>Propulsion
As the driving force, KRI Irian 2 pieces rely on TB-72 steam turbine receiving steam supply of 6 units Boilers KV-68 and routed through a 2 piece shaft.
Total power available is about 110,000 to 122,000 hp hp on both shafts, power is capable of making 13,600 tons this ship reaches a maximum speed of 32.5 knots. While the maximum distance that can be traveled is 9000 nautical miles at a constant speed of 18 knots.
>Number of crew
The ship can accommodate 1,270 crew members, including:
60 officers,
75 officer supervisors,
154 first officer.
>Ship crew
Star crew got Sakti is the Vice Lieutenant Sukardi, started checking the time while the ship boiler provides training to its members, while turning turbo ventilator loud explosion as steam pipeline rupture. The explosion resulted in injury to the Vice Lieutenant Sukardi along Corporal M Hitipeuw and J. Seaman Two Biama, last for two days in intensive care at the Naval Hospital in Jakarta. Lieutenant Sukardi maid died. Furthermore Milky Star award is given to his heirs in 1966.
>Officers who had served in the KRI Irian was:
Former Commander of the TNI and Menkopolkam in the United Indonesia Cabinet, Admiral (ret) Widodo AS then served as Weapons Officer in 1968.
Dr.. Tarmizi Taher, former Minister of Religious Affairs in the Development Cabinet VI, as Health Officer in KRI Irian.
Dr.. Kartono Mohamad, older brother of Gunawan Mohamad, founder of Tempo magazine. He had been a doctor in the KRI Irian during duty in the Navy (1964-1975).
source asmilnews.blogspot.com
"The Soldier Trade, if it is to mean anything at all, has to be anchored to an unshakable code of honour. Otherwise, those of us who follow the drums become nothing more than a bunch of hired assassins walking around in gaudy clothes . . . a disgrace to God and mankind." - Carl von Clausewitz, 1832

Raider1114

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More photos
"The Soldier Trade, if it is to mean anything at all, has to be anchored to an unshakable code of honour. Otherwise, those of us who follow the drums become nothing more than a bunch of hired assassins walking around in gaudy clothes . . . a disgrace to God and mankind." - Carl von Clausewitz, 1832

Raider1114

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Ivan Tenges - Fallback Point Defense Review

History : The Story behind Indonesia first acquisition of C-130 Hercules in 1960.
The first Hercules C 130 was made in 1956 and the first non-US user was Australian Air Force.
But the newer type, Hercules C-130B made in 1959 first customer outside US Air Force was the Indonesian Air Force.
Indonesian Air Force bought 8 units of C-130B and 2 units of KC-130B and the aircraft was delivered to Indonesian Air Force in September 1960. The interesting story behind this major purchase is that the plane is a 'gift' by president Kennedy to president Soekarno for releasing CIA pilot Allen Pope whose captured by Indonesian Forces after his plane was shot down by Indonesian fighter in 1958.
Allen Pope is a CIA agent disguised as mercenary pilot flying A-26 Invader for the Permesta Rebels in North Sulawesi.
On March 1958 after attacking Indonesian Army base in Ambon, Allen Pope's A-26 Invader was ambushed and shot down by Indonesian F-51D Mustang piloted by Captain Ignatius Dewanto from Indonesian Air Force.
Allen Pope was sent to trial in Jakarta, found guilty. facing death penalty but never executed because he was released under direct order of president Soekarno in early 1960.
Some said that the first Squadron of C-130B is a bribed from US government to president Soekarno for releasing Allen Pope.
"The Soldier Trade, if it is to mean anything at all, has to be anchored to an unshakable code of honour. Otherwise, those of us who follow the drums become nothing more than a bunch of hired assassins walking around in gaudy clothes . . . a disgrace to God and mankind." - Carl von Clausewitz, 1832

Raider1114

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CIA pilot, Allen Pope on trial in Indonesia
"The Soldier Trade, if it is to mean anything at all, has to be anchored to an unshakable code of honour. Otherwise, those of us who follow the drums become nothing more than a bunch of hired assassins walking around in gaudy clothes . . . a disgrace to God and mankind." - Carl von Clausewitz, 1832

Raider1114

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"The Soldier Trade, if it is to mean anything at all, has to be anchored to an unshakable code of honour. Otherwise, those of us who follow the drums become nothing more than a bunch of hired assassins walking around in gaudy clothes . . . a disgrace to God and mankind." - Carl von Clausewitz, 1832

Raider1114

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Anyone could provide info about the missiles TNI was the first guided missile operator in southeast asia if I'm not mistaken i just lost the thread
"The Soldier Trade, if it is to mean anything at all, has to be anchored to an unshakable code of honour. Otherwise, those of us who follow the drums become nothing more than a bunch of hired assassins walking around in gaudy clothes . . . a disgrace to God and mankind." - Carl von Clausewitz, 1832

adroth

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A little insight into the kind of mindset that perpetuates this hoax.

Seriously!!! Just because the US had bases in the Philippines, you already count that as Philippine assets???

https://www.facebook.com/groups/rpdefense/permalink/1111738445578668/?comment_id=1112832565469256&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D

« Last Edit: June 10, 2018, 06:20:28 AM by adroth »

miggye

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A little insight into the kind of mindset that perpetuates this hoax.

Seriously!!! Just because the US had bases in the Philippines, you already count that as Philippine assets???

https://www.facebook.com/groups/rpdefense/permalink/1111738445578668/?comment_id=1112832565469256&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D



Say what now? Gawd! i couldn't even follow the thread of his reasoning! another dellusional case....... :P
« Last Edit: June 10, 2018, 06:20:41 AM by adroth »
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mamiyapis

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The Indonesians would have eaten the AFP for breakfast, and then be done rolling across most of the country by dinner time by sheer strength of their armed forces, especially after their war for independence from their Dutch colonial overlords.

Had they played their cards right, they could have actually convinced Uncle Sam to let them take the Philippines and make a US friendly country that could control waters from the Indian to the Pacific Ocean. We're just lucky no one thought of that particular idea especially in the very fluid and play-it-loose climate of the 60s and 70s.