Author Topic: Hoax: In the 60s, the AFP was the most powerful military in Asia outside Japan  (Read 29348 times)

adroth

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Say what now? Gawd! i couldn't even follow the thread of his reasoning! another dellusional case....... :P

Sad thing is . . . this guy claims to be a veteran. There was actually a self-declared former officer, who ran his own FB group, that echoed this guy's sentiments.

adroth

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More insight into how people actually justify the hoax.

The truth hurts. But until we deal with these truths, we will never get to where we need -- or want -- to be as a nation.







« Last Edit: June 10, 2018, 06:18:49 AM by adroth »

Jaypee the fifth

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Sir A, Is it your data about Indonesia's weaponry comes from SIPRI website??

adroth

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Sir A, Is it your data about Indonesia's weaponry comes from SIPRI website??

This list came from SIPRI

http://defenseph.net/drp/index.php?topic=535.msg1234#msg1234

But SIPRI isn't the only source of myth-busting data. There is a wealth of reliable information about the capabilities of our neighbors that's actually available for folks who want to check their facts.

Go to a neighborhood library with copies of Janes Fighting Ships or Combat Fleets of the World, for example, and the facts are plain to see.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 06:18:16 AM by adroth »

Mokong

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Now, if you add a kuya's combat power located in country, that would be another story.

Question is, how did we view the alliance at that time?
-not asking for a US perspective!

LionFlyer

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During the 60s, Indonesia tilted to the Russians under Sukarno and with it came massive Soviet assistance. For awhile, they were the top most strategic threat in SEA on the minds of the Australians and pretty much, SEATO.

Massive in the form of:

A dozen Whiskey class submarines


KRI Irian, a Svedlov class cruiser



25 x TU-16 Badgers with AS-1 cruise missiles


Beyond these were the MiGs (13, 21s, later given to the US when they tilted the other way, post Sukarno), PT-76s (still in use, although being retired) and various military aids.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2017, 10:19:49 AM by LionFlyer »

dr demented

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This is an interesting article that I posted several times in the FB honeypot.  The article itself is about the escape of the South Vietnamese navy after the fall of Saigon.

Most of those ships eventually wound up being incorporated into the Philippine Navy.  However, it is interesting to note that the Philippine government was preparing to honor a request from the new Communist regime of Vietnam to return the ships and the 30,000 refugees aboard.

It almost give the feeling of fleet expansion by default.

http://www.historynet.com/how-to-steal-a-navy-and-save-30000-refugees-in-the-process.htm

Quote
Finally reaching the Philippines after seven days and about 1,000 miles, Captain Jacobs got some bad news. “The Philippine government wasn’t going to allow us in, period,” Jacobs recalled, “because these ships belonged to the North Vietnamese now and they didn’t want to offend the new country.” Indeed, Philippine President Ferdinand Marcos, a staunch U.S. ally during the war, was one of the first to recognize the new Communist rulers now in control of Vietnam. Marcos had been disappointed to see the United States abandon its ally but thought it prudent to establish a correct and respectful relationship with the new Communist Vietnam. And the new power in Southeast Asia wanted its ships back.

Armitage knew there was no way the leaking ships, with their decks teeming with exhausted refugees, could limp on to Guam, so he and Captain Do came up with a solution that Marcos could live with. “We would raise the American flag and lower the Vietnamese flag as a sign of transfer of the ships back to the United States,” Do said. “Now the war is over, we turn them back to the U.S.”

In addition to the deft legal maneuver, Do saw the opportunity to do something important for the now nationless refugees. “We lost our country, lost our pride and lost everything,” he said. “We asked to have a ceremony that would save us face and our dignity.” A frantic search ensued to find 32 American flags, and then officers from Kirk were sent aboard each Vietnamese ship to take command after a formal flag ceremony. After speeches were made, the ships’ guns were disassembled, and identifying letters painted over.

“That was the last vestige of South Vietnam,” said Rick Sauter, one of Kirk’s officers who took command of a Vietnamese ship. “When those flags came down and the American flags went up, that was it. Because a Navy ship is sovereign territory, that was the last sovereign territory of the Republic of South Vietnam.”

In Subic Bay on May 8, 1975, American flags fly on what legally had been the last sovereign territory of the Repbulic of Vietnam, the 32 South Vietnam navy ships that were led there by Kirk. (National Archives)
Before the Republic of Vietnam flags were lowered, thousands of people on the ships started to sing the national anthem of South Vietnam, Nay cong dan oi….(Oh, citizens of the country….). “Their voices soared over the waters,” Captain Do recalled. “When they lower the flag, they cry, cry, cry.”

On May 7, the ships, all flying American flags, were allowed to enter Subic Bay. They were eventually transferred to the Philippine navy.


The story is also told in NPR (there is an audio component in the link also):

http://www.npr.org/2010/09/01/129578263/at-war-s-end-u-s-ship-rescued-south-vietnam-s-navy

Quote
But as the flotilla approached the Philippines, the Kirk's captain got some bad news. The presence of South Vietnamese vessels in a Philippine port would present the government in Manila with a diplomatic predicament.

"The Philippine government wasn't going to allow us in, period, because these ships belonged to the North Vietnamese now and they didn't want to offend the new country," Jacobs, the captain, recalls.

The government of Philippine President Ferdinand Marcos was one of the first to recognize the Communist rulers now in control of a single Vietnam, and Jacobs was told the ships should go back.

Armitage and his South Vietnamese friend, Capt. Do, came up with a solution that Marcos had to accept.

Do recalls the plan: "We will raise the American flag and lower the Vietnamese flag as a sign of transfer [of] the ship back to the United States, because during the war those ships are given to the Vietnamese government as a loan, if you want, from the United States, to fight the Communists. Now the war is over, we turn them back to the United States."

There was a frantic search to find 30 American flags. Two officers from the Kirk were sent aboard each Vietnamese ship to take command after a formal flag ceremony.

Rick Sautter was one of the Kirk officers who took command of a Vietnamese ship.

"That was the last vestige of South Vietnam. And when those flags came down and the American flags went up, that was it. Because a Navy ship is sovereign territory and so that was the last sovereign territory of the Republic of Vietnam," he says.

"Thousands and thousands of people on the boats start to sing the [South Vietnamese] national anthem. When they lower the flag, they cry, cry, cry," Do remembers.

40niner

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The list below are among those ex-Rep of Vietnam ships which eventually were put into service by PN between 1975-1978 : (There were also a large number ex-US Military Sea Transportation Service ships -- LST (at least thirteen) and auxiliary support ships -- that were also eventually transferred to PN during those period, plus a few ex-Cambodian )
    1 x (USN) Edsall Destroyer Escort   
    • PF 4   Rajah Lakandula, ex-USS Camp DE-251, ex-RVN Tran Hung Dao

    4 x out of six (USCGS) Casco WHECutters
    • PF 7   Andres Bonifacio, ex-USCGC Chincoteague WHEC-375, ex-WAVP-375, ex-USN AVP-24; ex-RVN Ly Thoung Kiet; ex-PS-7
    • PF 10   Francisco Dagohoy, ex-USCGC Castle Rock WHEC-383, ex-WAVP-383, ex-USN AVP-35; ex-RVN Tran Vinh Trong; ex-PS-10
    • PF 12   Gregorio del Pilar, ex-USCGC McCulloch WHEC-386, ex-Wachapreague WAVP-386, ex-USN AVP-56; ex-RVN Ngo Quyen; ex-PS-8
    • PF 14   Diego Silang, ex-USCGC Bering Strait WHEC-382, ex-WAVP-382, ex-USN AVP-34; ex-RVN Tran Quan Khai; ex-PS-9


    5 x (USN) Admirable Minesweeper   / (USN) PCE-842 Patrol Craft, Escort
    • PS 18   Datu Tupas, ex-USS Shelter AM-301, ex-RVN Chi Linh
    • PS 19   Miguel Malvar, ex-USS Brattleboro PCER-852, ex-RVN Ngoc Hoi
    • PS 20   Magat Salamat, ex-USS Gayety AM239, ex RVN Chi Lang II
    • PS 22   Sultan Kudarat,   ex-USS Crestview PCE-895, ex-RVN Dong Da II
    • PS 23   Datu Marikudo, ex-USS Amherst PCER-853, ex-RVN Van Kiep II

    1 x   (USN) PC-461 Patrol Craft
    • PS 26   Negros Oriental,    ex-PC-1171, ex FN L'Inconstant, ex-Cambodian E-312


    5 x (USN) LST-491/542 Landing Ship, Tank
    • LT 87   Cotabato del Sur, ex-Cayuga County LST-529, ex-RVN Thi Nai HQ502
    • LT 54   Agusan del Sur, ex-Jerome County LST-848, ex-RVN Nha Trang
    • LT 57   Sierra Madre, ex-Harnett County LST-821, ex-AGP-821, ex-RVN My Thou, ex-Dumagat AL-57
    • LT 86   Zamboanga del Sur, ex-Marion County LST-975, ex-RVN Cam Banh (HQ-500)
    • LT 516   Kalinga Apayao, ex-Garrett County LST-786, ex-AGP786, ex-RVN Can Tho, ex-AE-516

    1 x (USN) Achelous Landing Craft Repair Ship   
    • AD 617   Yakal, ex-US LST 852, ex-USS Satyr ARL-23; ex-RVN Vinh Dong (HQ-802)


    2 x (USN) LSM-1 Landing Ship Medium   
    • LP 65   Batanes, ex-Oceanside LSM-175, RVN Huong Giang (HQ-404)
    • LP 66   Western Samar, ex-LSM-335, ex-RVN Hat Giang HQ400


    2 x (USN) LCI-351 Landing Craft Infantry (Large)   
    • LF 36   Marinduque, ex-LSIL 875, ex FN L 9039, ex-Cambodia P111
    • LF 37   Sorsogon, ex-LSIL 872, ex FN L 9038, ex-RVN Thien Kich HQ-329

    3 x (USN) LCS(L)(3)-1 Landing Craft Support (Large)(Mark3)   
    • LF-48   Camarines Sur, ex-USS LCS(L)(3)-129, ex-LSSL-129, ex-JDS Botan, ex-RVN Nguyen Duc Bong (HQ-231)
    • LF-49   Sulu, ex-USS LCS(L)(3)-96, ex-LSSL-96, ex-JDS Shobu, ex-RVN Nguyen Ngoc Long (HQ-230)
    • LF-50   La Union, ex-USS LCS(L)(3)-9, ex-LSSL-9, ex RFS Hallebard L-9023, ex-JDS Asagao, ex-RVN Doan Ngoc Tang (HQ-228)

    2 x (USN) LSI-L Landing Ship, Infantry   
    • LS 52   Camarines Norte, ex-LSIL 699, ex-Loi Cong L-9034
    • LS 53   Misamis Occidental, ex-LSIL 871, ex-Tam Set L-9033
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 07:09:45 AM by 40niner »
Obsolete weapons do not deter. You do not base a defence policy on someone else's good intentions.
- Apr 7, 1989 [Baroness Margaret Thatcher, UK PM (1979-90)]

40niner

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Most of those ships eventually wound up being incorporated into the Philippine Navy.  ...

It almost give the feeling of fleet expansion by default.
More than doubled?

We only had these medium-sized combatants :
* one Destroyer Escort / Patrol ship at that time -- PS76 Datu Kalantiaw, and the two more ex-JMSDF DEs(eventually Humabon and Sikatuna) were still being negotiated;
* two Auk/MSF (Quezon and Rizal)
* five PCEs (Cebu, Negros Occ, Leyte, Pangasinan, Iloilo)
* 1-to-3 PC461s
* a number of ex-WWII LST (conditions unknown in 1975-76) received either in 1947-48 (five were received, 1 retired in 1962), or those in 1969 (four) and 1972 (three).
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 07:11:17 AM by 40niner »
Obsolete weapons do not deter. You do not base a defence policy on someone else's good intentions.
- Apr 7, 1989 [Baroness Margaret Thatcher, UK PM (1979-90)]

Jaypee the fifth

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Thanks for the info Sir A! In terms of historical references SIPRI is good, but it has infos that needs to verify. During my thesis days, i collected my data about arms transfer at UN Register of Conventional Arms (UNROCA), but you can only see the tally of existing weapons in a certain year. I tried to look at IISS's Military Balance, but their existing data dated back late 90s or early 2000s (try to look at Taylor and Francis page, sometimes they gave free access to IISS's Military Balance). IHS Jane's is the best source, but you can't see some reliable books because of its obsolesce (i pertained here the Cold War military equipment inventory books made by the IHS Jane's).

adroth

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IHS Jane's is the best source, but you can't see some reliable books because of its obsolesce (i pertained here the Cold War military equipment inventory books made by the IHS Jane's).

IHS Janes are its share of errors as well. There used to be a thread about Jane's errors in the old forum. I need to re-assemble that.

Jaypee the fifth

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Is it true that Janes errors too?? It is my first time to know about this sir.

adroth

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Is it true that Janes errors too?? It is my first time to know about this sir.

We had an entire thread focusing on Janes errors in the old forum. Will need to rebuild that thread. One example, Janes still lists BRP Mactan as operational, even then its been off the PN roster, and officially decommissioned, for over half a decade.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 10:32:14 AM by adroth »