Author Topic: DND/PHL Navy's Frigate Acquisition Program - awarded  (Read 46618 times)

Invictus

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Re: DND/PHL Navy's Frigate Acquisition Program - awarded
« Reply #60 on: January 15, 2018, 04:32:15 PM »
Palace had special interest in Navy’s selection of weapons system supplier

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The Palace, the Department of National Defense (DND), and the Navy discussed the issue hounding the combat management systems (CMS) of the Navy’s frigate program.

It included a letter to President Rodrigo Duterte from the Navy explaining why it preferred Tacticos CMS of Thales Nederlands, Inc. over Hanwha Thales (HTC) for the CMS of the frigates.

Palace preference for Hanwha over Tacticos Thales

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The letter from Go, written in broken English, claimed that while “Thales CMS,” apparently referring to Tacticos CMS, has “many sales records of CMS in many countries including Korea… the End-Users of the many countries has (sic) been suffering from their poor supports (sic) of logistics services and upgrade or modernization of their outdated CMS because they are putting all non-recurring/ development costs for the logistics and upgrade to the foreign customer only due to small number of ships in their home countries with high margin as their profits policy.”

The letter said that the Korean Navy was set to “discard” Thales from its “OEM [original equipment manufacturer] portfolios” because of the above-stated reason.

It also said that “Hanwha will provide Philippines Navy (sic) the most economic and effective logistics and upgrade etc. (almost free riding or on boarding) after delivery or (sic) brand new CMS with the logistic supports based on large number of government funding supports.”

Moreover, Hanwha was prepared to provide “real time 24 hours logistics support in every fleet of Korean (N)avy and will establish a team for Philippines Navy in their fleet with real time network with Korean teams.”

Navy insists on Tacticos Thales

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the FAP PMT “preferred Tacticos CMS over Naval Shield ICMS” because Tacticos CMS “is one of the leading Combat Management Systems in the world considering that it is being used by 23 foreign countries to over 172 ships.”

Tacticos CMS is also compatible with the TDL 16 requirement of the AFP, while “Hanwha’s Naval Shield ICMS’ compatibility with TDL 16 is still under development phase but could not be operational by 2019

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In view of the foregoing, the Frigate Acquisition Project PMT sustains its preference on Tacticos of Thales Nederlands as the CMS for the two (2) PN Frigates...
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El_Filibusterismo1978

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Re: DND/PHL Navy's Frigate Acquisition Program - awarded
« Reply #61 on: January 15, 2018, 04:48:59 PM »
that article breed more questions than answers...

1. many sales records of CMS in many countries including Korea… the End-Users of the many countries has (sic) been suffering from their poor supports (sic) of logistics services and upgrade or modernization of their outdated CMS because they are putting all non-recurring/ development costs for the logistics and upgrade to the foreign customer only due to small number of ships in their home countries with high margin as their profits policy ---- they need to elaborate on this one??

2. Hanwha will provide Philippines Navy (sic) the most economic and effective logistics and upgrade etc. (almost free riding or on boarding) after delivery or (sic) brand new CMS with the logistic supports based on large number of government funding supports --- i hope someone could elaborate on this one.. pang electronics na ang kwentuhan nito..

3. real time 24 hours logistics support in every fleet of Korean (N)avy and will establish a team for Philippines Navy in their fleet with real time network with Korean teams ------ "will establish".. ano included sa support? need to elaborate on there end...

kung 2019 pa ma activate ung TDL 16 ibig sabihin di pa compatible with NATO and US Navy sakaling mag karoon ng exercises such as Pacific Rim, etc..

El_Filibusterismo1978

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Re: DND/PHL Navy's Frigate Acquisition Program - awarded
« Reply #62 on: January 15, 2018, 04:53:54 PM »
so even the OIC is on the same page of the relieved Mercado that they prefer Tacticos over Naval Shield.. so why relieved Mercado?


El_Filibusterismo1978

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Re: DND/PHL Navy's Frigate Acquisition Program - awarded
« Reply #63 on: January 15, 2018, 04:56:07 PM »
one thing i found interesting is nakaabot na pala sa MalacaÑang ang problema sa CMS, so they are not in the dark on the issue....

how about the other replaced systems beside the CMS..


adroth

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Re: DND/PHL Navy's Frigate Acquisition Program - awarded
« Reply #64 on: January 15, 2018, 06:51:30 PM »
that article breed more questions than answers...

1. many sales records of CMS in many countries including Korea… the End-Users of the many countries has (sic) been suffering from their poor supports (sic) of logistics services and upgrade or modernization of their outdated CMS because they are putting all non-recurring/ development costs for the logistics and upgrade to the foreign customer only due to small number of ships in their home countries with high margin as their profits policy ---- they need to elaborate on this one??

2. Hanwha will provide Philippines Navy (sic) the most economic and effective logistics and upgrade etc. (almost free riding or on boarding) after delivery or (sic) brand new CMS with the logistic supports based on large number of government funding supports --- i hope someone could elaborate on this one.. pang electronics na ang kwentuhan nito..

3. real time 24 hours logistics support in every fleet of Korean (N)avy and will establish a team for Philippines Navy in their fleet with real time network with Korean teams ------ "will establish".. ano included sa support? need to elaborate on there end...

kung 2019 pa ma activate ung TDL 16 ibig sabihin di pa compatible with NATO and US Navy sakaling mag karoon ng exercises such as Pacific Rim, etc..

Many things in that article don't add up.

====

http://defenseph.net/drp/index.php?topic=2800.msg8882#msg8882
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 08:51:19 PM by adroth »

Invictus

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Re: DND/PHL Navy's Frigate Acquisition Program - awarded
« Reply #65 on: January 16, 2018, 05:01:29 PM »
^ Acting FOIC cited Hanwa Thales Co., Ltd (HTC) in his letter to Malacañang, 23 January 2017

that article breed more questions than answers...

1. many sales records of CMS in many countries including Korea… the End-Users of the many countries has (sic) been suffering from their poor supports (sic) of logistics services and upgrade or modernization of their outdated CMS because they are putting all non-recurring/ development costs for the logistics and upgrade to the foreign customer only due to small number of ships in their home countries with high margin as their profits policy ---- they need to elaborate on this one??

2. Hanwha will provide Philippines Navy (sic) the most economic and effective logistics and upgrade etc. (almost free riding or on boarding) after delivery or (sic) brand new CMS with the logistic supports based on large number of government funding supports --- i hope someone could elaborate on this one.. pang electronics na ang kwentuhan nito..

3. real time 24 hours logistics support in every fleet of Korean (N)avy and will establish a team for Philippines Navy in their fleet with real time network with Korean teams ------ "will establish".. ano included sa support? need to elaborate on there end...

kung 2019 pa ma activate ung TDL 16 ibig sabihin di pa compatible with NATO and US Navy sakaling mag karoon ng exercises such as Pacific Rim, etc..


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« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 05:04:55 AM by Invictus »
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Invictus

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Re: DND/PHL Navy's Frigate Acquisition Program - awarded
« Reply #66 on: January 17, 2018, 02:05:22 AM »
Design review of 2 frigates to undergo technical inspection: DND
By Priam Nepomuceno  January 17, 2018, 1:13 pm

Quote
Critical Design Review (CDR) of the two frigates, on order from South Korean shipbuilder Hyundai Heavy Industries, has been completed and will now be undergoing examination by the Philippine Navy's Technical Inspection and Acceptance Committee (TIAC) this week.

Quote
Once approved, the CDR will serve as the "Bible" of the shipbuilder in constructing the ship and putting the systems desired by the customer or end-user.

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El_Filibusterismo1978

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Re: DND/PHL Navy's Frigate Acquisition Program - awarded
« Reply #67 on: January 17, 2018, 02:40:01 AM »
good luck to the test.. Hope they all fall into place...

ano ba standards ng test? any checklist?

papasok ba sa test ang "swarm attacks from air, surface at subsurface"?


slayermoonlight

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Re: DND/PHL Navy's Frigate Acquisition Program - awarded
« Reply #68 on: January 18, 2018, 04:03:45 AM »
If HHI tells the (noob) Philippine government:  "Take it or leave it", what would you choose?

 #1 Take it? (accept the design and commence steel cutting despite the non-compliances)?

 #2 Leave it? (just cancel the frigate project as per Rep Alejano advice)?

choose your poison wisely

LionFlyer

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Re: DND/PHL Navy's Frigate Acquisition Program - awarded
« Reply #69 on: January 18, 2018, 05:56:56 AM »
#1 Take it? (accept the design and commence steel cutting despite the non-compliances)?

From HHI perspective, there is no non-compliance to speak of, especially given the contract wording. Which means it could be the other way round. HHI can terminate this contract unilateral if it doesn't get its way without any penalties.

#2 Leave it? (just cancel the frigate project as per Rep Alejano advice)?

Going by the wording of the contract, payment so far will be forfeited. See #1.

Taking this to the courts will take years to resolve. Airbus just resolved a dispute with Taiwan over the sale of missiles... from 1992!

 #3, negotiate with HHI and top-up the difference to get your CMS/bells and whistles. Money talks, but the politics would make it an untenable choice.

As distasteful as this saga is, one point needs to be highlighted. The original scope of this project was for a far less capable platform and thus was budgeted accordingly. The seeds of this problem was laid when the scope was revised for a far more capable light frigate by the consultant, midway thru the bid. Not really the consultant's fault as he was trying to do right.

But when you budget to build a two story house and decided to make it three story without any increase in budget.... you must either get lucky with a good contractor willing to absorb the difference or run the risks of someone cutting corners. The risk evidently exploded.

Citing GRSE's statements about being able to deliver at this price point is merely a red herring. It is easy for them to take this position and throw shade at a competitor since they got no skin in the game. Even if the contract with HHI was canned, and project restarted with this scope and no changes to the budget, it is a huge risk because the margins are razor thin and none of the brand name shipyards are interested. You might end up with the likes of GRSE (India), MTG Dolphin (Bulgaria). 
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 06:08:19 AM by LionFlyer »

adroth

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Re: DND/PHL Navy's Frigate Acquisition Program - awarded
« Reply #70 on: January 19, 2018, 07:47:36 PM »
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 08:51:21 PM by adroth »

LionFlyer

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Re: DND/PHL Navy's Frigate Acquisition Program - awarded
« Reply #71 on: January 20, 2018, 05:46:38 PM »
TTC rightly pointed out that NS ICMS is a "fork" from the original TACTICOS in software terms. But no two forks are equal and the question is less about whether the platform can be easily modified, but who does the work (and pays for it).

Unlike Singapore, Philippines does not have that capability to do that modification and integration work and would be reliant on Hanwah. Who will have to charge for it or offer you the indigenous alternative (Link K for example) for free, but further tying AFP to the SK ecosystem.

adroth

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Re: DND/PHL Navy's Frigate Acquisition Program - awarded
« Reply #72 on: January 21, 2018, 01:45:08 AM »
In all the recent discussions about the FAP and Link16, one important part of the project appears to have been missed. SBB NR DND-PN-FAP-16-01 specify Link16 and Link22 as requirements  . . . but were to be FFBNW




mamiyapis

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Re: DND/PHL Navy's Frigate Acquisition Program - awarded
« Reply #74 on: January 23, 2018, 07:48:13 AM »
Ex-Navy chief: Frigate project must push through

By Priam Nepomuceno  January 22, 2018, 1:48 pm

Quote
MANILA -- Despite the controversies surrounding the PHP18 -billion Frigate Acquisition Program (FAP), former Philippine Navy flag-officer-in-command Vice Admiral Ronald Joseph Mercado still wants the project to push through as the two ships will give the PN its much needed punch in protecting the country's vast maritime territories.

He made this announcement during a chance interview in Camp Aguinaldo, Quezon City on Monday.

"Well, sa amin lang naman is I like that frigate (project to push through) because everyone in the Navy wants that frigate (to be completed) kasi it's a combat ship, anong mangyayari sa Navy natin kung walang punch 'di ba, you cannot (only have) transport ships, we should have a punch, the frigate is the capital ship, and this is the first time in the history of the PN that we will have a frigate newly constructed tapos missile capable (and can defeat) air, surface and undersea (threats)," Mercado added.

The FAP contract worth PHP18 billion, including the weapon systems and munitions, was won by South Korean shipbuilder Hyundai Heavy Industries. It will be armed with a variety of missiles and guns capable of defeating various threats.

With regard to claims that he is pushing for a particular brand of combat management system (CMS) for the frigates, Mercado said he was only standing for the original position of the PN regarding the equipment it wants for its ships.

He added that the system the Navy wanted is more proven and in use in many naval forces in the world.

Earlier, Magdalo party-list Rep. Gary Alejano claimed that FAP project is replete with anomalies and that its design was altered from the original.

This includes the alleged preference for the Hanwha CMS, the lawmaker said.

Aside from this, there are claims that Special Assistant to the President (SAP) Christopher 'Bong' Go allegedly interfered with the FAP.

However, this allegation was dismissed by the Department of National Defense (DND) last week.

"The President has already addressed the issue of the alleged 'intervention' of the SAP Christopher “Bong” Go in the PN Frigate Acquisition Project," DND spokesperson Arsenio Andolong said, quoting Defense Secretary Delfin Lorenzana.

"The Secretary of National Defense (Delfin Lorenzana) is confirming that no intervention or interference by Secretary Bong Go happened. The document that the SND alluded to have been given to him by Secretary Bong Go was handed to him at the Palace, so he assumed that it came from Secretary Go, the Special Assistant to the President and Chief of the Presidential Management Staff (PMS). It should be noted that the one of the tasks of the PMS includes the official routing and endorsement of documents to government agencies concerned, for appropriate action," he added.

Andolong said the subject document originated from Hanwha, one of the proponents for the CMS who were post-qualified by the PN for the FAP.

"The SND forwarded it to then Flag-Officer-In-Command of the Philippine Navy (then Vice Admiral Ronald Joseph Mercado) for appropriate action, who, in turn, gave it to then Commodore (now Rear Admiral) Robert Empedrad, the Chairperson of the Frigate Project Management Team at the time. Admiral Empedrad wrote a reply to the document stating the preferred CMS of the Philippine Navy, subject to the terms and conditions of the contract," he added.

The DND spokesperson said there was neither hint nor guidance from the Palace or from Go to influence the implementation of the project.

"There is a contract for the FAP which was crafted mainly by the Philippine Navy and it will be implemented strictly to the letter," Andolong pointed out. (PNA)

_______________________________________


*rant mode on*

Sorry... but from everything I've seen and heard... Isn't this entire hullabaloo the shared fault of the Navy and DND? These "pull at the heartstrings" tactics and articles of the Navy just broke my back.

They essentially signed a contract no one proof-read before the signing ceremony. Even if no one from our side signs a particular page of a contract, if it is attached to it at the time of signing, then it stands as legal language of the said contract. Does no one understand that at the Navy? Mercado and Empedrad can spin this however they want, but at the end of the day they are both on hook for signing what they are now claiming was a defective and deceitful contract. We can talk about how underhanded this was on the part of HHI until the Chinese Navy gets flying ships, but that is just crying over spilled milk.

Now let's not forget the seeming willingness of both the DND and Navy to just negotiate the CMS and call it a day. Why laser focus on the CMS when there is a sh*t ton of issues with the Frigate? If I was Mercado and I got that list? I would throw it in the face of the HHI rep and tell him the deal is off and we break the contract if they don't fix EVERYTHING.

Now, let's say just for argument's sake HHI bends on the CMS and installs Tacticos tomorrow. What is the Navy's playbook on the rest of the issues the ship reportedly has? Complain again? Beg HHI for understanding? Ask them to think of the children all salivating at the mouth for the Navy's first missile firing ships? What's next? They basically wrote themselves into a corner by releasing all this crap in media instead of talking for more negotiating room.

Do we bring up the issues piecemeal and hope they also bend? Do we get backlash saying we are now just nitpicking? This focus on just the CMS opens a dangerous precedent for future acquisitions. It tells suppliers they can bend the rules as long as you can get the Navy to tell you what is important to them and just qualify with that system.

Lastly, this is article just made sure HHI knows they have us by the balls when it comes to the 2 frigates.

Le sigh

*rant mode off*