Author Topic: DND/PHL Navy's Frigate Acquisition Program - awarded  (Read 24357 times)

mamiyapis

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Re: DND/PHL Navy's Frigate Acquisition Program - awarded
« Reply #45 on: November 29, 2017, 05:16:30 AM »
Good catch Mamiyapis.

Could the addition of the VLS to be installed and not FFBNW an agreement between Hyundai and the DND, in exchange for changing the other gears that were initially in the spec?

It's entirely possible gemini1, as the config now taking shape isn't exactly a slouch and is actually comparable to current front-line warships serving with the German, US, and other western navies.

If a counter-offer was made to advance the VLS installation, it could explain the inclusion of less expensive(bit less capable) equipment over the supposed "original config".

40niner

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Re: DND/PHL Navy's Frigate Acquisition Program - awarded
« Reply #46 on: November 29, 2017, 08:09:14 AM »
The reported presence of VLS is news to me. I thought it was going to be FFBNW? Could the Koreans have pulled a hat trick and included the K-VLS launchers at the very least with the ships?

It would indeed be interesting if K-VLS would actually be added as part of the package.

But that would bind PN with the few current load-outs that are already integrated with it.  As it is, only LigNex1 K-SAAM Sea Bow (Surface-to-Air Anti Missile), Red Shark K-ASROC and Hyunmoo-3 Cruise Missile had been tested so far.  Accordingly -- there are no plans to integrate other western missiles, as they already have concurrent Mk.41s for those application.  Both VLS's are installed on their KDX-II and -III

Meanwhile, they have developed a smaller 4-cell K-VLS (2x2) module which will be installed on their newest Minelayer and LST-II, with the K-SAAM as anti-air self-defense, supposedly in lieu of RAM. 
Obsolete weapons do not deter. You do not base a defence policy on someone else's good intentions.
- Apr 7, 1989 [Baroness Margaret Thatcher, UK PM (1979-90)]

adroth

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Re: DND/PHL Navy's Frigate Acquisition Program - awarded
« Reply #47 on: November 29, 2017, 07:12:44 PM »
The reported presence of VLS is news to me. I thought it was going to be FFBNW? Could the Koreans have pulled a hat trick and included the K-VLS launchers at the very least with the ships?

From: http://www.hanwha-defensesystems.co.kr/mobile/eng/products/launcher.do



dr demented

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Re: DND/PHL Navy's Frigate Acquisition Program - awarded
« Reply #48 on: November 29, 2017, 11:29:55 PM »
http://www.pna.gov.ph/articles/1017491

Quote
Acceptance procedures for frigate components ongoing

By Priam Nepomuceno  November 30, 2017, 8:47 am

MANILA -- Technical inspection and acceptance procedures for components that will be installed on the Philippines' first two missile-firing frigates are now being finalized.

This was bared by Department of National Defense (DND) public affairs office chief Arsenio Andolong on Wednesday when asked on the progress of the modernization project worth PHP18 billion.

"The Frigate Acquisition Project (FAP) is proceeding as scheduled and we are now finalizing the Technical Inspection and Acceptance procedures for the many components that will comprise the two frigates," he said in a message to the Philippine News Agency.

This stage includes possible selection of weapons, propulsion and sensor systems on the two frigates.

"We expect the concerned parties to submit the checklists, which are required in the Technical Inspection process, not later than December 1, 2017," Andolong said.

On Oct. 24, 2016, DND Secretary Delfin Lorenzana formally inked the contract for the FAP, together with officials and delegates from South Korea's Hyundai Heavy Industries (HHI) at the PN's headquarters in Naval Station Andrada, Roxas Boulevard, Manila.

The project involves the construction and delivery of two missile-firing frigates to the PN.

As background, the Notice of Award was approved, issued and was duly conformed by HHI on Sept. 13, 2016 with the amount of USD336,912,000 or PHP15,744,571,584.

An additional PHP2 billion was allocated for the acquisition of assorted weapon systems and munitions. (PNA)

adroth

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Re: DND/PHL Navy's Frigate Acquisition Program - awarded
« Reply #49 on: December 01, 2017, 12:20:34 AM »
It would indeed be interesting if K-VLS would actually be added as part of the package.

But that would bind PN with the few current load-outs that are already integrated with it.  As it is, only LigNex1 K-SAAM Sea Bow (Surface-to-Air Anti Missile), Red Shark K-ASROC and Hyunmoo-3 Cruise Missile had been tested so far.  Accordingly -- there are no plans to integrate other western missiles, as they already have concurrent Mk.41s for those application.  Both VLS's are installed on their KDX-II and -III

Meanwhile, they have developed a smaller 4-cell K-VLS (2x2) module which will be installed on their newest Minelayer and LST-II, with the K-SAAM as anti-air self-defense, supposedly in lieu of RAM.

For reference

Korea’s KDX-III AEGIS Destroyers
Jun 11, 2015 00:36 UTC by Defense Industry Daily staff

https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/drs-wins-multiplexing-contract-for-korean-aegis-destroyers-0431/

< Edited >

KDX-III ships real firepower lies their array of 128 vertical launch cells, which is slightly more than the American Ticonderoga Class cruiser’s 122 cells. On the Korean ships, these VLS cells come in 2 types.

The standard Mk 41 vertical launch cells are split 48 forward, and 32 aft, for a total of 80. Vertically-launched SM-2 Block IIIA/B surface-to-air missiles handle long-range anti-aircraft duties, and an upgrade to the SM-6 is planned. The ships could also upgrade to ABM-capable SM-3s, if accompanying modifications are made to the radar and combat system, but South Korean leaders aren’t interested. Mk.41 cells can also carry a wide variety of other payloads, including quad-packed RIM-162 anti-aircraft missiles, vertically-launched anti-submarine torpedoes, or Tomahawk cruise missiles. South Korea currently seems focused on filling them with SM-2s. This will give the destroyers 3-layer anti-aerial protection (SM-2/6, RAM, Goalkeeper).

Weapons variety comes from a 3rd VLS set of 48 aft-mounted “K-VLS” cells, a Korean system that holds locally-designed weapons like Hyunmoo cruise missiles, SSM-700K Haesung external link anti-ship missiles, Red Shark “K-ASROC” vertically launched rocket-assisted anti-submarine torpedoes, or other compatible weapons.

< Edited >

LionFlyer

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Re: DND/PHL Navy's Frigate Acquisition Program - awarded
« Reply #50 on: December 01, 2017, 10:38:10 PM »
The reported presence of VLS is news to me. I thought it was going to be FFBNW? Could the Koreans have pulled a hat trick and included the K-VLS launchers at the very least with the ships?

"Expected to include" sounds more like FFBNW. That there are space provisions for a VLS system forward is known.  If there was VLS from the get-go, then the Mistrals/'Simbad RCs are a redundant expense.

mamiyapis

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Re: DND/PHL Navy's Frigate Acquisition Program - awarded
« Reply #51 on: December 02, 2017, 02:30:11 AM »
The reported presence of VLS is news to me. I thought it was going to be FFBNW? Could the Koreans have pulled a hat trick and included the K-VLS launchers at the very least with the ships?

"Expected to include" sounds more like FFBNW. That there are space provisions for a VLS system forward is known.  If there was VLS from the get-go, then the Mistrals/'Simbad RCs are a redundant expense.

It could be just the launchers, LionFlyer, as the budget for ammunition and missiles was separated from the get-go.

adroth

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Re: DND/PHL Navy's Frigate Acquisition Program - awarded
« Reply #52 on: December 20, 2017, 03:18:43 PM »
Frigate project to push through despite Mercado relief
By Priam Nepomuceno  December 20, 2017, 6:18 pm

http://www.pna.gov.ph/index.php/articles/1019420

MANILA -- The Philippine Navy’s frigate project would push through despite the relief of Vice Adm. Ronald Joseph Mercado from the Navy’s top post, Defense Secretary Delfin Lorenzana said Wednesday.

"Kaya nga naming siya tinanggal, para matuloy (We relieved him so that the project would push through)" he added.

Mercado was relieved Tuesday after the defense chief cited loss of trust and confidence in the integrity and leadership of the naval officer.

This was brought about by Mercado’s alleged fixation on one company to supply the combat management system (CMS) of the frigate project, whose contract was won by South Korean shipbuilder Hyundai Heavy Industries.

The CMS handles the weapons, sensors and other equipment related to combat.

Lorenzana also clarified that before signing the contract for the frigate program last year, he had a consultation meeting with ranking Navy leaders, including Mercado who was Western Command chief at that time, to determine if they had any problem or misgiving on the project.

When no opposition came from the naval officers, Lorenzana said he proceeded to the Navy headquarters in Roxas Blvd., Manila and signed the contract.

In the contract, Lorenzana said the shipbuilder has the authority or power to select the maker or manufacturer of the CMS.

"The CMS is very important to the project but there is a specification there. They were in the contract, the technical working groups’ discussion. You cannot put a company there to put the CMS, ilagay mo lang capability na gusto mo (just state the capability that you want). Now Hyundai said that they can, they will put the capabilities, CMS there according to specifications and we will find that out when they deliver that. Pag na-deliver yun at hindi nasunod yung specifics nyan (Once that is delivered and the specifications are not met), we will not accept the project and we have to reconnect to them so that they can correct whatever is deficient," he added.

He added that Hyundai is not keen on Mercado's proposal as it is more expensive and not in the contract.

Once delivered and commissioned in 2020, the frigates will be the first Filipino warships capable of neutralizing surface, subsurface and air threats with missile and other modern armaments. (PNA)
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 03:20:24 PM by adroth »

mamiyapis

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Re: DND/PHL Navy's Frigate Acquisition Program - awarded
« Reply #53 on: December 23, 2017, 02:46:58 AM »
The SND has said what has been on my mind for some time now: We cannot specify brands, why the insistence on Thales?

Now the claim has been that a "BOQ"(assuming this is a Bill of Quantities) issued by HHI contains different hardware, hence making these "new selections" for hardware "illegal". The matter being complicated that the requested capability of the Navy is reportedly not being met by these new selections.

Hopefully, documentation will come out touching on these issues and finally clearing the air. One thing is for sure though, the social media storm this issue has caused has reached international media and it would only help to go public to finally correct misconceptions... whichever side they may exist on.

horge

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Re: DND/PHL Navy's Frigate Acquisition Program - awarded
« Reply #54 on: December 23, 2017, 12:40:59 PM »
The SND has said what has been on my mind for some time now: We cannot specify brands.

Sure, but you can specify to the point where only one product clears, or at least to the point where your
true desire becomes obvious to all. Do you remember back on timawa, how the original spec for the TAS
was lifted almost word for word from (brand X) brochure?

;)

Quote
it would only help to go public to finally correct misconceptions.

Pragmatically, yes: there's little DND+AFP does that OPFOR doesn't know intimately about anyway.
Conceptually, no. OPSEC (and PERSEC) remain ideal principles.

mamiyapis

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Re: DND/PHL Navy's Frigate Acquisition Program - awarded
« Reply #55 on: December 24, 2017, 03:43:40 AM »

Sure, but you can specify to the point where only one product clears, or at least to the point where your
true desire becomes obvious to all. Do you remember back on timawa, how the original spec for the TAS
was lifted almost word for word from (brand X) brochure?

;)


Sure h, they could have done that... but apparently the specs were not written quite as well enough
to ensure the same from happening.

From my POV, it looks like someone screwed up the specifications/requirements and didn't realize
the Koreans might just have something they can use to alternate against their target product. The
last 6 months have sounded like nothing more than someone desperately trying to get the products
they wanted all along.


Quote
Pragmatically, yes: there's little DND+AFP does that OPFOR doesn't know intimately about anyway.
Conceptually, no. OPSEC (and PERSEC) remain ideal principles.

The SND can cut through the ambiguities. He's in it whether he wants to be or not. Release a more
general statement, something along the lines of : "Product T is good, but Product H works too and
is compliant with all our needs". Then let the Pre-Delivery Inspections do the job.

adroth

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Re: DND/PHL Navy's Frigate Acquisition Program - awarded
« Reply #56 on: December 24, 2017, 11:03:50 AM »
The SND can cut through the ambiguities. He's in it whether he wants to be or not. Release a more
general statement, something along the lines of : "Product T is good, but Product H works too and
is compliant with all our needs". Then let the Pre-Delivery Inspections do the job.

With the politically-motivated inquiries that are reportedly being lined up . . . a more detailed accounting of what happened will be necessary.

LionFlyer

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Re: DND/PHL Navy's Frigate Acquisition Program - awarded
« Reply #57 on: December 24, 2017, 09:58:48 PM »
The SND has said what has been on my mind for some time now: We cannot specify brands
As per Section 18, RA 9184

Now the claim has been that a "BOQ"(assuming this is a Bill of Quantities) issued by HHI contains different hardware, hence making these "new selections" for hardware "illegal". The matter being complicated that the requested capability of the Navy is reportedly not being met by these new selections.
As part of the two envelope submission, the BOQ is one of the second envelope along with the price schedule.

If Thales was explicitly listed in the BOQ, it might explain the insistence. Again, we don't have sight on what was mentioned in the contract and how the responsibility between the prime contractor (HHI) and GOP are resolved. This model of the prime contractor deciding on the equipment selection isn't new or necessarily bad, especially since the risks are transferred to the prime contractor in the event that the system integration runs into trouble, versus CSI being a GFE or by a third party.

adroth

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Re: DND/PHL Navy's Frigate Acquisition Program - awarded
« Reply #58 on: December 25, 2017, 11:14:28 PM »
Interestingly, the dissolution of the Samsung-Thales entity ended after the second Samsung-Thales equipped Incheon class frigate was launched.

Thales to sell 50% stake in Samsung joint venture

By Korea Herald
Published : Mar 9, 2015 - 19:35 Updated : Mar 9, 2015 - 19:35

http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20150309001015
      
Thales, Europe’s biggest defense electronics company, plans to sell its 50 percent stake in Samsung Thales to the company’s new owner Hanwha Group, multiple sources said Monday.

“An official announcement is imminent as their talks are being finalized,” said a source familiar with the matter.

“Thales considers Hanwha less attractive as a partner. For the same reason, Total is also looking to sell its stake in its joint venture with Samsung.”

Samsung Thales is a 50-50 joint venture between Samsung and Thales established in 2001. It has engaged in the design and development of digital defense technologies and systems.

Could this mean that the intent -- all along -- was for South Korea to develop its own CMS with Thales as the knowledge-transfer source, and that the necessary knowledge had indeed already been transferred?

How much of Tacticos actually lives on in Naval Shield?


« Last Edit: December 25, 2017, 11:18:14 PM by adroth »

El_Filibusterismo1978

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