Retitled: Foreign Object Damage (FOD) to FA-50 engine

[gemini1]

Moderator's note

This thread was broken off from the following thread, and references the following event

‘Bird strike’ destroys engine of PAF’s brand new FA50 lead-in jet
By: Jaime Sinapit, InterAksyon.com
August 22, 2016 10:34 PM

http://www.interaksyon.com/article/131681/bird-strike-destroys-engine-of-pafs-brand-new-fa50-lead-in-jet

MANILA, Philippines - One of two brand new South Korean-made FA50 “Golden Eagle” lead-in fighter jet platforms of the Philippine Air Force (PAF) was rendered non-operational after its engine was hit and totally destroyed by a “bird strike”.

“It’s true, na-bird strike ‘yung isa nating FA50 at natengga na dahil totally destroyed ‘yung engine niya. Ang hindi ko lang alam kung dalawang engine o isa lang. Twin engines kasi ‘yung FA50 natin,” a former officer of PAF who asked not to be identified told InterAksyon.com.

InterAksyon.com has tried but failed to get an immediate comment from PAF spokesman Colonel Araus Robert Musico.

According to the source, the bird strike hit the FA50 jet at the PAF’s runaway at Clark Airfield in Pampanga sometime in March this year.

The incident was not reported by PAF until the information was leaked to InterAskyon.com.

“Sa ngayon, ‘yung isa na lamang na FA50 ang lumilipad dahil nga sira ang makina at hindi pa napapalitan nung isang FA50,” the source said.

Birds colliding with aircraft usually result in bird strikes, which are a natural occurrence at this time of the year.

< Edited >

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A full ILS pacakge is actually mandated by law. But such packages can't last forever. Ideally we'd transition to a logistics agreement before that package runs out.

A bit OT, but school me a bit here Mr A.
Why then is the PAF bidding for a new(?) engine for the FA50 that suffered the bird strike several months ago? Shouldn't the ILS package/parts started coming in for storage after the planes were delivered? Or does the manufacturer determines which part/s should be delivered first, base of estimated annual flying hours?

[adroth]

A full ILS pacakge is actually mandated by law. But such packages can't last forever. Ideally we'd transition to a logistics agreement before that package runs out.

A bit OT, but school me a bit here Mr A.
Why then is the PAF bidding for a new(?) engine for the FA50 that suffered the bird strike several months ago? Shouldn't the ILS package/parts started coming in for storage after the planes were delivered? Or does the manufacturer determines which part/s should be delivered first, base of estimated annual flying hours?

Good question.

As I understand it, ILS covers components are need replacement based on normal wear and tear. This Foreign Object Damage (FOD) event apparently falls out side that classification.

[jetmech]

^^^That was poor foresight on the way they packaged the ILS (if we go by your reply). If stretching the budget have been the issue, instead of 12, they could have negotiated 10 built up and 1 or 2 knocked down kits plus wear and tear ILS to establish a rotating pool of parts? The bird strike damage could have been any big ticket items; canopy, wind screen, horizontal/ vertical leading edge surfaces or the radome.  "Rotating" was used in our world, when a part is pulled from supply, the turn-in (broke part) will be repaired or procured (if beyond repair). This way, assets are not depleted until it's zero availability (hi/Lo limits).

[adroth]

^^^That was poor foresight on the way they packaged the ILS (if we go by your reply).

Sadly . . . we're still ways away from logistics agreements chief. 

[gemini1]

^^^That was poor foresight on the way they packaged the ILS (if we go by your reply). If stretching the budget have been the issue, instead of 12, they could have negotiated 10 built up and 1 or 2 knocked down kits plus wear and tear ILS to establish a rotating pool of parts? The bird strike damage could have been any big ticket items; canopy, wind screen, horizontal/ vertical leading edge surfaces or the radome.  "Rotating" was used in our world, when a part is pulled from supply, the turn-in (broke part) will be repaired or procured (if beyond repair). This way, assets are not depleted until it's zero availability (hi/Lo limits).

^^^That was poor foresight on the way they packaged the ILS (if we go by your reply).

Sadly . . . we're still ways away from logistics agreements chief. 

If I remember correctly, the F8 Crusaders was delivered to us, with completely refurb units plus knockdown units for spares. Just the way Jet describes.
Im not sure if the Crusaders we got was for payment of base's rental, or an aid. And if all the mechanics for its acquisitions (eg ILS) were based on how the US does their procurement.

The question now is, on any future bidding or direct procurement, can an ILS package be redefined as having complete parts, including big ticket items (supplied just once) as Jetmech mentioned. And be provided upon/after delivery of the first couple of units, not necessarily based on flying hours/wear and tear. So in short, a complete knockdown parts? But not necessarily reducing the number of units?


   

[jetmech]

    It looks like some kids excited to be given new toys on their birthdays/ Christmas then finding out batteries did not come with some to play with.

[jetmech]

^^^That was poor foresight on the way they packaged the ILS (if we go by your reply). If stretching the budget have been the issue, instead of 12, they could have negotiated 10 built up and 1 or 2 knocked down kits plus wear and tear ILS to establish a rotating pool of parts? The bird strike damage could have been any big ticket items; canopy, wind screen, horizontal/ vertical leading edge surfaces or the radome.  "Rotating" was used in our world, when a part is pulled from supply, the turn-in (broke part) will be repaired or procured (if beyond repair). This way, assets are not depleted until it's zero availability (hi/Lo limits).

^^^That was poor foresight on the way they packaged the ILS (if we go by your reply).

Sadly . . . we're still ways away from logistics agreements chief. 

If I remember correctly, the F8 Crusaders was delivered to us, with completely refurb units plus knockdown units for spares. Just the way Jet describes.
Im not sure if the Crusaders we got was for payment of base's rental, or an aid. And if all the mechanics for its acquisitions (eg ILS) were based on how the US does their procurement.

The question now is, on any future bidding or direct procurement, can an ILS package be redefined as having complete parts, including big ticket items (supplied just once) as Jetmech mentioned. And be provided upon/after delivery of the first couple of units, not necessarily based on flying hours/wear and tear. So in short, a complete knockdown parts? But not necessarily reducing the number of units?

....Gemini, yes, that's my thought. I was under the impression that the ILS included engines, pumps, etc. Some recent purchases of other countries included such big ticket items in their ILS. Especially engines!

[adroth]

....Gemini, yes, that's my thought. I was under the impression that the ILS included engines, pumps, etc. Some recent purchases of other countries included such big ticket items in their ILS. Especially engines!

Umm . . . notice how these things actually came without ammo? 

Lots of things missing with these things. Apparently spare engines were one of them.

[adroth]

Ayoshi's contribution on the revived "Keeping the FA-50 in the air" thread

DND to push through with P491-M purchase of FA-50 spare parts | GMA news - October 5, 2016

She said the bidding would be conducted using the non-discretionary "pass/fail" criteria specified in the implementing rules and regulations of the Government Procurement Reform Act.

Some P416.47 million was earmarked for the engine, which should be delivered within 720 calendar days upon the issuance of the Notice to Proceed, while P75.04 million was allotted for a set of gas turbine generator, which should be delivered within 540 calendar days from the issuance of the NTP. —Amita Legaspi/NB, GMA News

Manila Standard (August 24, 2016): Golden Eagle grounded by bird strike under repair

PHILIPPINE Air Force spokesman Colonel Araus Robert Musico on Tuesday confirmed that one of the new FA50 “Golden Eagle” jet fighter that was grounded due to a bird strike is already under repair, almost five months after the incident in April.

[gemini1]

....Gemini, yes, that's my thought. I was under the impression that the ILS included engines, pumps, etc. Some recent purchases of other countries included such big ticket items in their ILS. Especially engines!

Umm . . . notice how these things actually came without ammo? 

Lots of things missing with these things. Apparently spare engines were one of them.

It seems that whoever's in charge of these bidding requirements, just forgets everything once a  bidding is done/awarded. No follow up or reviews are done if the documents they prepared was satisfactory to the end users, should anything happen.
While we may not have the infos of such bidding process in the past (before the age of www),
I have a feeling such issues has happened before.
Does anyone have any info on what happened to the Sokol heli that crashed? Last I heard, its repairable but will take a long time. Why? it happened barely a year after delivery. Does the delay have something to do with ILS package? Shouldn't this incident raised a red flag to those preparing bid documents and make amendments were needed?     

[jetmech]

Ayoshi's contribution on the revived "Keeping the FA-50 in the air" thread

DND to push through with P491-M purchase of FA-50 spare parts | GMA news - October 5, 2016

She said the bidding would be conducted using the non-discretionary "pass/fail" criteria specified in the implementing rules and regulations of the Government Procurement Reform Act.

Some P416.47 million was earmarked for the engine, which should be delivered within 720 calendar days upon the issuance of the Notice to Proceed, while P75.04 million was allotted for a set of gas turbine generator, which should be delivered within 540 calendar days from the issuance of the NTP. —Amita Legaspi/NB, GMA News

Manila Standard (August 24, 2016): Golden Eagle grounded by bird strike under repair

PHILIPPINE Air Force spokesman Colonel Araus Robert Musico on Tuesday confirmed that one of the new FA50 “Golden Eagle” jet fighter that was grounded due to a bird strike is already under repair, almost five months after the incident in April.

  Notice the delivery date?  Ok, my dumb suggestion. Anyone has the balls (PAF/AFP) to ask the powers to be to grab # 12 FA-50 engine and designate it as the spare of all spares? Of course, contract for # 12 has to be modified with the addition of expense to crate it or whatever to ferry it for delivery either thru commercial or be picked-up by one of the SSVs?

[gemini1]

Two years? crap! the other 10 aircrafts could already be here, and that one bird will still be grounded?!

[jetmech]

  Not sure where Teddy Locsin got his source WRT US stopping the Koreans from fully arming the FA-50, but I can see many reasons why. Perception of maturity and professionalism seems to lacking in the way the PAF is trying to modernize itself. I can imagine myself sitting on US side and asking details on what the PAF wanted for this transaction with the Koreans (US gov't approval on transfer of technology), and going by line items on the ILS portion, question will be, "just consumables for ILS?. They just want a flying plane with sophisticated weaponry that the PAF is decades behind in skills and knowledge?" At least flying capability and skill was acknowledged for air shows. That's a very low perception.

[adroth]

[adroth]