Author Topic: Frigate Acquisition Project: Air / Surface Search Radar  (Read 1785 times)

adroth

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Frigate Acquisition Project: Air / Surface Search Radar
« on: April 05, 2018, 12:47:22 AM »
Administrator's note: See also Frigate Acquisition Project thread index for this, and other, sub-systems

=====


PN requirements as per SBB# PN-FAP-16-01


mamiyapis

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Re: Frigate Acquisition Project: Air / Surface Search Radar
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2018, 04:50:03 AM »
Reportedly HHI has contracted for the TRS-3D / AN/SPS-75 radar for air and surface search on the new frigates. The radar has been subject of much derision that stems from a lack of understanding on the system. It is actually deployed on multiple front-line vessels of large capable navies, including:

US Navy (LCS flight I)
US Coast Guard (National Security Cutters)
German Navy (F122 frigates and K130 corvettes)
Royal Danish Navy (StanFlex patrol boats and Niels Juel corvettes)
Spanish Navy
Norwegian Navy

WApinoy2

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Re: Frigate Acquisition Project: Air / Surface Search Radar
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2018, 06:18:39 AM »
As per the PN Requirements Air/Surface search 3D radar Tracking Capability, it should be at least 750 Tracks of Air and Surface tracks.
How can we reconcile the specs of Hensoldt TRS-3D radar having the number of Tracking capacity below than what was required from the PN Bid Document specs?

PERFORMANCE DATA   
Maximum instrumented range: 200 km
Minimum range: 200 m
Elevation coverage: -2°...50° (70°)
Azimuth coverage: 360°
Tracking 3D capacity: >400 targets
Gun fire support: 2 windows
Track range performance:
Low altitude target: 11.3 nmi
Accuracy:
Elevation: ≤ 1.3°
Bearing: ≤ 0.24°
Range: ≤ 20 m

https://www.hensoldt.net/solutions/sea/radar/3d-multi-mode-surveillance-and-target-acquisition-radar-trs-3d/

adroth

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Re: Frigate Acquisition Project: Air / Surface Search Radar
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2018, 11:31:03 AM »
As per the PN Requirements Air/Surface search 3D radar Tracking Capability, it should be at least 750 Tracks of Air and Surface tracks.
How can we reconcile the specs of Hensoldt TRS-3D radar having the number of Tracking capacity below than what was required from the PN Bid Document specs?

PERFORMANCE DATA   
Maximum instrumented range: 200 km
Minimum range: 200 m
Elevation coverage: -2°...50° (70°)
Azimuth coverage: 360°
Tracking 3D capacity: >400 targets
Gun fire support: 2 windows
Track range performance:
Low altitude target: 11.3 nmi
Accuracy:
Elevation: ≤ 1.3°
Bearing: ≤ 0.24°
Range: ≤ 20 m

https://www.hensoldt.net/solutions/sea/radar/3d-multi-mode-surveillance-and-target-acquisition-radar-trs-3d/

Notice how Hendoldt's specs actually say GREATER than 400 tracks? That's what ">" stands for.

They simply didn't expose the maximum value and a competitive sizing argument based on a pulled-from-your-rearend-rule-of-thumb-extrapolation doesn't really cut it. Take it from someone who has to deal with spec sheets for a living.

Spec sheets provide figures based on predetermined conditions. These are typically the vendor's OWN methodology. You can't base your buying decisions on open-source spec sheets. That's just how technology works. Figures need validation. PERIOD.

Why wouldn't Hendolt give the maximum figures? Ask yourself . . . would you want to advertise that to a potential adversary?

If this is indeed the radar that the PN gets . . . and the PN signs off on these figures . . . then they've either come up with their own methodology for validating the figures, or is leveraging another country's (presumably an ally) proof-of-concept resources.

« Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 01:33:35 AM by adroth »

LionFlyer

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Re: Frigate Acquisition Project: Air / Surface Search Radar
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2018, 11:47:07 PM »
The short reply to the earlier question is we don't know what's the upper limit.

The few facts that we can ascertain is the >400 tracks figure cited in official trade publications and brochures have been used since the TRS-3D/16ES days as well as the landbased TRML. The system has been upgraded with a GaN transmitter and probably a few other components to the Baseline D specifications. 

The question is how these improvements translated to a greater tracking capacity? 10%? 20%? or 100%? (which needs to be in order to meet PN's requirement).

Going to try to explain something technical here:
  • Track creation (also known as initiation) is a function of radar plots. 
  • Radar plots creation (also known as extraction) is a function of the radar video
  • Radar video is is a function of the transmitter and the receiver.
Hensoldt had upgraded the transmitter to solid state Gallium Nitride (GaN) technology means that beyond reliability, the output and the received video should be much improved. Which simply means more plots can be extracted. Plot extraction itself can be improved (through aftermarket cards like Cambridge Pixel's) and that is usually one of the quickest way to upgrade an old radar. With better and more plots, more tracks can be initiated.

Track capacity, while important is a side issue compared to track quality, IMO. You can initiate plenty of tracks but if those tracks ends up as ghost tracks or false tracks, it is not operationally effective. This is where the black art of track correlation comes to play. Track capacity and quality varies according to the environment as well as the filters (MHT, Kalman, IMM etc) used. A lot of fine-tuning comes along with it. 

Between the proposed two radars offered, the Thales NS100 is obviously the better choice. TRS-3D has been around since 1992 since the old days of Telefunken Systemtechnik (DASA) and operators such as Malaysia have expressed issues with it, but it is also not the same one from '92.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 11:51:43 PM by LionFlyer »

El_Filibusterismo1978

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Re: Frigate Acquisition Project: Air / Surface Search Radar
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2018, 02:26:07 AM »
NS100 is AESA while TRS-3D is PESA ...

tama ba ako?

adroth

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Re: Frigate Acquisition Project: Air / Surface Search Radar
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2018, 08:34:44 PM »
NS100 is AESA while TRS-3D is PESA ...

tama ba ako?

Neither is OFFICIALLY confirmed as being options for the FAP. So they are discussed, individually, in the International developments section

TRS-3D

NS100

El_Filibusterismo1978

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Re: Frigate Acquisition Project: Air / Surface Search Radar
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2018, 01:57:34 AM »
Now you got me curious, Sir A. if the radars are not the option for the FAP, so there is a number of options for the Radar besides the two...

adroth

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Re: Frigate Acquisition Project: Air / Surface Search Radar
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2018, 04:08:01 AM »
Now you got me curious, Sir A. if the radars are not the option for the FAP, so there is a number of options for the Radar besides the two...

Unless the DND-AFP, or an authorized press release by one of the vendors itself, confirms the selection, everything currently discussed in the public domain or social media is speculative.

If you want to be brutally accurate . . . it ain’t final till we see it on the actual ship.

You’ve been on the forum a while Mr F. Where does Timawa / DefensePH put “what-if’s” on the forum? :-)
« Last Edit: April 12, 2018, 04:09:47 AM by adroth »

mamiyapis

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Re: Frigate Acquisition Project: Air / Surface Search Radar
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2018, 07:41:55 AM »
NS100 is AESA while TRS-3D is PESA ...

tama ba ako?

Let me try to answer your question El_F,

Strictly speaking, the NS100 series is AESA, while the TRS-3D is PESA... however, the TRS-3D has something called E-Scan for elevation, a feature which works somewhat like AESA albeit in only one axis. Now, how do we determine which is AESA and which isn't?

The NS series was born only in the last decade, with versions like the -106 only recently completing testing and only having one customer(RSN), so it is solidly in AESA territory. However the TRS-3D has been around since the 90s, and was the radar for a lot of NATO ships during the time period up until the early 2000s, and hence pioneered a lot of technologies commonly found in current radar systems. Lionflyer is right in saying no one outside of Hensoldt or the end-users can determine the exact number of tracks it's capable of at the moment... then you have the TRS-4D on the German F125s... which at the time the radars were under EADS(before becoming Airbus, then Hensoldt) was interestingly called the "TRS-3D/NR"

The NR stands for Non-Rotating, and featured an arrangement of 4 panels, 2 on each mast of the ship. VERY similar to current AESA setups. There is actually Atlas Elektronik documentation that states this. 

adroth

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Re: Frigate Acquisition Project: Air / Surface Search Radar
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2018, 12:35:17 PM »
This should help as well. This is where vertical-axis-electronic-steering that Mamiyapis was talking about comes in.

From: http://www.radartutorial.eu/19.kartei/07.naval/karte008.en.html

TRS-3D

< Edited >

The multimode TRS-3D radar uses a phased array antenna in a 3-D multimode for simultaneous detection and tracking of multiple targets and employs electronic stabilization to neutralize the rolling motion of boats operating in choppy coastal waters, with specific operational modes to protect against sea-skimming cruise missiles and attack helicopters. The radar antenna is made up of a planar phased array pencil-beam array of 16 or 32 rows of 46 radiators each. Electronic phase shifters are incorporated for scanning in elevation. The antenna includes polarization agile or linear polarized radiators.

< Edited >

LionFlyer

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Re: Frigate Acquisition Project: Air / Surface Search Radar
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2018, 05:29:10 AM »
Ho ho. I wonder if Hensodt has been reading this thread or the FAP news... Tracking capacity have been updated to >750.

It must have been pretty recent since WAPinoy2's post was dated 8 April and the Google cache at 5 April still reflected the older number. They still seem to avoid saying a definitive number, insisting on the greater than.


Quote
https://www.hensoldt.net/solutions/sea/radar/3d-multi-mode-surveillance-and-target-acquisition-radar-trs-3d/

PERFORMANCE DATA   
 

Maximum instrumented range: 200 km
Minimum range: 200 m
Elevation coverage: -2°...50° (70°)
Azimuth coverage: 360°
Tracking 3D capacity: > 750 targets
Gun fire support: 2 windows
Track range performance:
Low altitude target: 11.3 nmi
Accuracy:
Elevation: ≤ 1.3°
Bearing: ≤ 0.24°
Range: ≤ 20 m

« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 05:36:51 AM by LionFlyer »

WApinoy2

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Re: Frigate Acquisition Project: Air / Surface Search Radar
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2018, 06:44:52 AM »
Ho ho. I wonder if Hensodt has been reading this thread or the FAP news... Tracking capacity have been updated to >750.

It must have been pretty recent since WAPinoy2's post was dated 8 April and the Google cache at 5 April still reflected the older number. They still seem to avoid saying a definitive number, insisting on the greater than.


Quote
https://www.hensoldt.net/solutions/sea/radar/3d-multi-mode-surveillance-and-target-acquisition-radar-trs-3d/

PERFORMANCE DATA   
 

Maximum instrumented range: 200 km
Minimum range: 200 m
Elevation coverage: -2°...50° (70°)
Azimuth coverage: 360°
Tracking 3D capacity: > 750 targets
Gun fire support: 2 windows
Track range performance:
Low altitude target: 11.3 nmi
Accuracy:
Elevation: ≤ 1.3°
Bearing: ≤ 0.24°
Range: ≤ 20 m

Hmm...Interesting, even the Specs Sheets link in PDF on there website was removed. I'm wondering if I manage to down load that PDF spec sheets of this hensoldt TRS 3D somewhere in my PC showing Maximum Tracking Capacity of >400 targets.

WApinoy2

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Re: Frigate Acquisition Project: Air / Surface Search Radar
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2018, 06:53:32 AM »
Some original specs in screen shots from Thai Military web for this Hensoldt TRS 3D Search Radar Showing the original specs of >400 targets:


For sure they are following this issue involving there products.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 06:55:15 AM by WApinoy2 »

LionFlyer

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Re: Frigate Acquisition Project: Air / Surface Search Radar
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2018, 08:03:37 AM »
Let's get the conspiracy theory out of the way. Hensoldt is a major European defense firm. They are unlikely to be in cahoots with anyone to put out fake numbers for a contract with just two radars. It's their reputation on the line.

Having said that, the badmouthing of their products in some quarters may have prompted Hensoldt to make this belated update to clear the air about the performance of their system.