Author Topic: Russian equipment are cheap to buy, expensive to operate  (Read 1361 times)

adroth

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Russian equipment are cheap to buy, expensive to operate
« on: October 07, 2016, 01:05:44 PM »
With all the renewed talk about Russian equipment, time to rebuild the database that we lost.

The "bear's" equipment has its place since they have unique offerings. But buyer beware.

redcomet_m

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Re: Russian equipment are cheap to buy, expensive to operate
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2016, 08:39:42 PM »
Maybe besides the important MTBF of various parts and consumables, we could partake in a small forum effort of enumerating suppliers, besides china of course.

The only thing that i could think of are israeli companies such as IAI, but they compromise mainly of helicopter upgrades to NATO standard.

LionFlyer

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Re: Russian equipment are cheap to buy, expensive to operate
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2016, 09:06:34 PM »

The complaints about after-sales support from the Russians seems to boil down to the structure of the military industry complex. JSC Rosoboronexport is the primary contact point / middle man for all Russian exports, instead of dealing directly with the manufacturers themselves. (e.g as one would deal with Boeing or General Dynamics)

Being the middle man, it's in their interest to make the sale (and take a cut of the profit), hence it is possible that unrealistic promises might have been made without knowledge from the OEM. Once the deal is done, they drop out of the picture, leaving the customer and OEM holding the bag.

http://www.janes.com/article/61082/russian-made-hardware-users-struggle-with-spare-parts-dilemma
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33822821
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/india-sukhoi-fighter-jets-spares-defence-ministry-2960457/

adroth

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Re: Russian equipment are cheap to buy, expensive to operate
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2016, 03:00:40 AM »
The Algerian experience

http://www.news24.com/World/News/Algeria-to-return-Russian-jets-20080218

Algeria to return Russian jets
2008-02-18 19:10
Moscow - Algeria wants to return 15 fighter jets it bought from Russia because of their poor quality, the Kommersant daily reported on Monday, citing an official from Russia's state United Aerospace Corporation.

The official said Russia was proposing to take back the MiG-29 jets, which were delivered to Algeria in 2006 and 2007, but only if Algeria bought more modern and expensive planes such as the MiG-29M2 or the MiG-35.

< Edited >

In return for Russia agreeing to cancel Algeria's Soviet-era debts, Algerian authorities bought Russian arms worth $6.3bn, including $3.5bn in fighter jets, during a visit by Putin to Algeria in 2006.

gemini1

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Re: Russian equipment are cheap to buy, expensive to operate
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2016, 12:12:39 PM »
If, and its a big IF, that the Russkies will be generous to sell us big ticket items, on soft loans, just as Japan did. And knowing how complicated and expensive it is to maintain and service these items are. Would it be a realistic request for full ILS package, good for the life of said loan? or if not, say 10 to 15 years? 

adroth

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Re: Russian equipment are cheap to buy, expensive to operate
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2016, 12:21:28 PM »
Would it be a realistic request for full ILS package, good for the life of said loan? or if not, say 10 to 15 years?

A full ILS pacakge is actually mandated by law. But such packages can't last forever. Ideally we'd transition to a logistics agreement before that package runs out.

The following excerpt from a Supplemental Bid Bulletin from the PAF’s Attack Helicopter project, which eventually acquired the AgustaWestland AW109, presents an example of the extent of spares that are included in acquisitions. This document lays out how much time the AFP typically has to establish a more sustained spares acquisition scheme after a weapon system arrives.



For the long-term, in-country capability for supporting these aircraft must be developed. If done with the nation’s interests in mind, this need could be filled by Philippine companies — in partnership with foreign manufacturers of the equipment — that would provide logistical support arrangements to ensure local availability of manufacture-approved parts as well as in-country maintenance and repair capabilities. Companies offering these services would be contracted to provide ready availability of critical components at pre-negotiated prices based on forecasts of the need for such parts (e.g., based on maintenance schedules, Mean-Time-Between-Failure (MTBF) data, statistical trends, etc.) as well as foreign currency fluctuation tolerances.

This would reduce the delays created by having to source replacement components overseas after having exhausted the AFP’s own internal inventory — assuming budgetary provisions permit the build-up of such an inventory as opposed to a Just-In-Time (JIT) parts requisition scheme. The red-tape generated by government procurement processes currently do not facilitate JIT acquisitions.

Note: The complexities of balancing quantities between in-house AFP component stocks with components sourced through these logistical arrangements are beyond the goals of this article and would require direct access to proprietary maintenance data. Attention must also be given to the tariffs that such companies would face for importing and then storing these components. The potential for leveraging the industrial park status of the Government Arsenal compound in Limay Bataan, to address these tariffs, would need to be investigated. See further below for details.

A foreign example of a commercial entity providing logistical support for a military organization would be Quantas Defense Services — previously a wholly owned subsidiary of Quantas Airlines but was sold to Northrop Grumman in 2013. This company provided support for the Royal Australian Air Fore’s A330 multi-role tanker transport fleet, operational logistics services for the Australian government’s VIP aircraft, and engine overhaul services for the Lockheed Martin Orion P-3 and BAE Systems Hawk lead-in fighter trainer. It was recently given a contract to refurbish C-130s of the Indonesian Air Force.

Broadly speaking, this equipment-support capability is referred to as: Maintain, Repair, & Overhaul (MRO). The Philippines is no stranger to aeronautical MRO — particularly the commercial MRO that is at the heart of this article. The Philippine Aerospace Development Corporation, a Government Owned & Controlled Corporation (GOCC), was established in 1973 with the following charter:

. . . the government’s arm for the development of the Philippine Aviation Industry. The driving motives for its establishment are self-reliance, national security and technology transfer.

Whereas private MRO companies, such as Lufthansa Technik Philippines — a joint venture between MacroAsia Corporation and Lufthansa Technik AG — benefit from foreign capital and know-how and cater to larger and more sophisticated aircraft, the PADC’s service offerings are comparatively stunted.

In its current form, the PADC is ill-suited to provide MRO services for the dozens of aircraft that are coming for the AFP. Closing the gap between current capabilities with what our new warplanes require will require a systemic evaluation of why the PADC atrophied in the first place. Assuming the PADC can be recapitalized and modernized, if not replaced with an equivalent but optimized organization, such an entity would be the perfect platform for Public-Private Partnership ventures that would not only satisfy the needs of the AFP, but also compete in the global MRO market.

adroth

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Re: Russian equipment are cheap to buy, expensive to operate
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2016, 03:27:09 PM »
Discussions about the lack of replacement engines for the FA-50, and how that could have been tied to ILS, have been moved here:

Retitled: Foreign Object Damage (FOD) to FA-50 engine