Author Topic: Fire Support Vehicle (FSV) options for the AFP  (Read 2583 times)

adroth

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Fire Support Vehicle (FSV) options for the AFP
« on: January 22, 2018, 09:47:00 PM »
Administrator's note: A companion discussion about this thread is available on the forum's FB extension here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/rpdefense/permalink/1556042354481606/

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The Main Battle Tank (MBT) represents the perfect balance of firepower, protection, and mobility. It came into its own in the late 1940s, when decades of weapons development gave rise to the Soviet T-34 and German Panther, and are now personified by the likes of the M-1 Abrams, Leopard 2, and the Merkava.

MBTs, however, come with very very hefty price tags. In operating environments that permit it -- such as low intensity conflicts -- these costs that could be alleviated by adjustments to the firepower-protection-mobility balance. This thread is meant to explore these compromises.

The recent revelation of the AFP's plans to acquire Light Tanks has inspired a flurry of discussion in various social media outlets. Many of these discussions are merely premature speculation, yielding little in the way of insights into what the AFP is actually doing. Just the same . . . there is fun to be had in speculation.

In recognition of this fact, this thread index is designed to provide a curated, non-sensationalist, alternative to these meme-generators.

This index is divided into the following sections:

FSVs of the past - these are vehicles that serviced with the AFP at some point in the past and gives some indication as to what vehicles, historically, were deemed suitable for the role.

FSVs today - these are vehicles armed with 25mm guns or higher that currently in use

Speculation zone - these are speculative discussions about what vehicles would satisfy the AFP's Light Tank Acquisition project


Vehicle     Description     Discussions
         
FSVs of the past       
         
  M-49 105mm gun-howitzer  LVTH6
         
  M-32 76mm gun  Philippine Army M-41 Walker Bulldogs
         
FSVs today       
         
  Cockerill 90mm gun  Cadilac-Gage V-300 Fire Support Vehicle
       
  76mm L23A1 gun  FV101 Scorpion
       
  76mm L23A1 gun  M113 with Scorpion turret
       
  25mm gun 
       
M-113s with Elbit 25mm turret
         
  25mm gun  Armored Infantry Fighting Vehicle (AIFV)
         
  25mm gun  GKN Simba with 25mm cannon
         

SPECULATION ZONE BELOW
       
         
 

BAE Combat Vehicle 90
  Combat Vehicle 90
         
 

BAE Expeditionary Light Tank
  US Army Mobile Protected Firepower (MPF) program

M-8 Armored Gun System
         
 

Bionix AFV
  Bionix AFV
         
 

K-21 Infantry Fighting Vehicle
  K-21 Infantry Fighting Vehicle
         
 

FNSS/PT Pindad Kaplan MT MMWT
  FNSS/PT Pindad Kaplan MT MMWT
         
 

Griffin Technology Demonstrator
  US Army Mobile Protected Firepower (MPF) program
         
 

Kurganets-25
  Kurganets-25
         
 

Stryker APC
  Stryker Armored personnel carrier & variants
« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 10:29:48 PM by adroth »

girder

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Re: Fire Support Vehicle (FSV) options for the AFP
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2018, 09:18:41 AM »
Have there been actually any official announcements as to the the AFP's requirements for a light tank? There are a lot of contemporary IFVs that would certainly make for good FSVs, but I feel that any weight limit imposed would be most telling as to what kind the military is looking for.

Given the quite prominent use of "hillbilly"style improvised armor on the AFP's current light armor assets during the urban fighting in Marawi, one could argue that a vehicle with far better protection than existing assests is necessary. The BMPT Terminator based on an MBT chassis comes to mind as the heaviest one that comes to mind at 48 tons. That's pretty much the weight range of an actual MBT.

On a more recent note, there's also the recently announced Chinese light tank.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 09:28:19 AM by girder »

adroth

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Re: Fire Support Vehicle (FSV) options for the AFP
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2018, 10:02:42 AM »
Have there been actually any official announcements as to the the AFP's requirements for a light tank?

Nope. There are none :-)

The PA has been looking into “tank destroyers” and light tanks for years, and have kept tabs on developments just to keep-a-bead on the state of the art. But full-on requirements have not yet been defined. So the folks overseeing the process have actually been chuckling all the speculation.

The intent of this thread is help the keeping-a-bead process along.

girder

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Re: Fire Support Vehicle (FSV) options for the AFP
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2018, 07:31:51 AM »
Well in that case...

There's an interesting lecture by a Dr. Philip Karber on Russian operations in the Ukraine. In it he mentions his observations on the vulnerability of light armored vehicles during the conflict, not just from man-portable anti-tank weapons but also from peer armored vehicles.

As I mentioned previously, given the vulnerability of current armored assets to even improvised anti-armor weapons (RPG-2s built off of mortar shells) during operations in Marawi I think it would be a good idea for the military to look into armored vehicles offering significantly better protection (provisions for applique armor, ERA, or even active protection systems). This would also help make sure that whatever armored assets acquired might actually be viable in contemporary warfare as well as counter-insurgency.

Might I suggest a couple more examples of contemporary IFVs to the list? Besides the Terminator based on the T-90/T-72 platforms, there's the planned Kurganets IFV based off of the new Armata platform. That's only 25 tons compared to the older designs. There's also the CV90.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2018, 11:04:20 AM by girder »

adroth

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Re: Fire Support Vehicle (FSV) options for the AFP
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2018, 10:40:35 AM »
Well that case...


Might I suggest a couple more examples of contemporary IFVs to the list? Besides the Terminator based on the T-90/T-72 platforms, there's the planned Kurganets IFV based off of the new Armata platform. That's only 25 tons compared to the older designs. There's also the CV90.

To help things along, perhaps you could start discussions about these vehicles in the “Discussions about all nations and places” (http://defenseph.net/drp/index.php?board=9.0), and I can simply link them here.  :)

Ominae

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Re: Fire Support Vehicle (FSV) options for the AFP
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2018, 07:46:07 PM »
Unless the Bionix is still being ready to be produced by ST Kinetics, the only way to get them in case it's an option is through the SAF getting rid of them since their Next Gen IFVs are coming.

LionFlyer

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Re: Fire Support Vehicle (FSV) options for the AFP
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2018, 05:19:07 AM »
Unless the Bionix is still being ready to be produced by ST Kinetics, the only way to get them in case it's an option is through the SAF getting rid of them since their Next Gen IFVs are coming.

The Bionix is still available and is produced upon request. But I suspect there will be a minimum order quantity and smaller the number, the higher the unit cost.

The Next Gen IFV is replacing the old M113s in front line service, not the Bionix. Perhaps the earlier Bionix 1 may be kept in reserve but will certainly not be sold.