Author Topic: Fire Support Vehicle (FSV) options for the AFP  (Read 6247 times)

adroth

  • Administrator
  • Boffin
  • *****
  • Posts: 6628
    • View Profile
    • The ADROTH Project
Fire Support Vehicle (FSV) options for the AFP
« on: January 22, 2018, 09:47:00 PM »
Administrator's note: A companion discussion about this thread is available on the forum's FB extension here:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/rpdefense/permalink/1556042354481606/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/rpdefense/permalink/1843884219030750/

====

The Main Battle Tank (MBT) represents the perfect balance of firepower, protection, and mobility. It came into its own in the late 1940s, when decades of weapons development gave rise to the Soviet T-34 and German Panther, and are now personified by the likes of the M-1 Abrams, Leopard 2, and the Merkava.

MBTs, however, come with very very hefty price tags. In operating environments that permit it -- such as low intensity conflicts -- these costs that could be alleviated by adjustments to the firepower-protection-mobility balance. This thread is meant to explore these compromises.

The recent revelation of the AFP's plans to acquire Light Tanks has inspired a flurry of discussion in various social media outlets. Many of these discussions are merely premature speculation, yielding little in the way of insights into what the AFP is actually doing. Just the same . . . there is fun to be had in speculation.

In recognition of this fact, this thread index is designed to provide a curated, non-sensationalist, alternative to these meme-generators.

This index is divided into the following sections:

FSVs of the past - these are vehicles that serviced with the AFP at some point in the past and gives some indication as to what vehicles, historically, were deemed suitable for the role.

FSVs today - these are vehicles armed with 25mm guns or higher that currently in use

Speculation zone - these are speculative discussions about what vehicles would satisfy the AFP's Light Tank Acquisition project


Vehicle     Description     Discussions
         
FSVs of the past       
         
  M-49 105mm gun-howitzer  LVTH6
         
  M-32 76mm gun  Philippine Army M-41 Walker Bulldogs
         
FSVs today       
         
  Cockerill 90mm gun  Cadilac-Gage V-300 Fire Support Vehicle
       
  76mm L23A1 gun  FV101 Scorpion
       
  76mm L23A1 gun  M113 with Scorpion turret
       
  25mm gun 
       
M-113s with Elbit 25mm turret
         
  25mm gun  Armored Infantry Fighting Vehicle (AIFV)
         
  25mm gun  GKN Simba with 25mm cannon
         

SPECULATION ZONE BELOW
       
         
 

BAE Combat Vehicle 90
  Combat Vehicle 90
         
 

BAE Expeditionary Light Tank
  US Army Mobile Protected Firepower (MPF) program

M-8 Armored Gun System
         
 

Bionix AFV
  Bionix AFV
         
 

K-21 Infantry Fighting Vehicle
  K-21 Infantry Fighting Vehicle
         
 

FNSS/PT Pindad Kaplan MT MMWT
  FNSS/PT Pindad Kaplan MT MMWT
         
 

Griffin Technology Demonstrator
  US Army Mobile Protected Firepower (MPF) program
         
 

Kurganets-25
  Kurganets-25
         
TBA  TBA

Otokar Tulpar light tank
  Otokar Tulpar light tank
         
 

Stryker APC
  Stryker Armored personnel carrier & variants
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 02:15:40 PM by adroth »

girder

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 101
    • View Profile
Re: Fire Support Vehicle (FSV) options for the AFP
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2018, 09:18:41 AM »
Have there been actually any official announcements as to the the AFP's requirements for a light tank? There are a lot of contemporary IFVs that would certainly make for good FSVs, but I feel that any weight limit imposed would be most telling as to what kind the military is looking for.

Given the quite prominent use of "hillbilly"style improvised armor on the AFP's current light armor assets during the urban fighting in Marawi, one could argue that a vehicle with far better protection than existing assests is necessary. The BMPT Terminator based on an MBT chassis comes to mind as the heaviest one that comes to mind at 48 tons. That's pretty much the weight range of an actual MBT.

On a more recent note, there's also the recently announced Chinese light tank.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 09:28:19 AM by girder »

adroth

  • Administrator
  • Boffin
  • *****
  • Posts: 6628
    • View Profile
    • The ADROTH Project
Re: Fire Support Vehicle (FSV) options for the AFP
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2018, 10:02:42 AM »
Have there been actually any official announcements as to the the AFP's requirements for a light tank?

Nope. There are none :-)

The PA has been looking into “tank destroyers” and light tanks for years, and have kept tabs on developments just to keep-a-bead on the state of the art. But full-on requirements have not yet been defined. So the folks overseeing the process have actually been chuckling all the speculation.

The intent of this thread is help the keeping-a-bead process along.

girder

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 101
    • View Profile
Re: Fire Support Vehicle (FSV) options for the AFP
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2018, 07:31:51 AM »
Well in that case...

There's an interesting lecture by a Dr. Philip Karber on Russian operations in the Ukraine. In it he mentions his observations on the vulnerability of light armored vehicles during the conflict, not just from man-portable anti-tank weapons but also from peer armored vehicles.

As I mentioned previously, given the vulnerability of current armored assets to even improvised anti-armor weapons (RPG-2s built off of mortar shells) during operations in Marawi I think it would be a good idea for the military to look into armored vehicles offering significantly better protection (provisions for applique armor, ERA, or even active protection systems). This would also help make sure that whatever armored assets acquired might actually be viable in contemporary warfare as well as counter-insurgency.

Might I suggest a couple more examples of contemporary IFVs to the list? Besides the Terminator based on the T-90/T-72 platforms, there's the planned Kurganets IFV based off of the new Armata platform. That's only 25 tons compared to the older designs. There's also the CV90.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2018, 11:04:20 AM by girder »

adroth

  • Administrator
  • Boffin
  • *****
  • Posts: 6628
    • View Profile
    • The ADROTH Project
Re: Fire Support Vehicle (FSV) options for the AFP
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2018, 10:40:35 AM »
Well that case...


Might I suggest a couple more examples of contemporary IFVs to the list? Besides the Terminator based on the T-90/T-72 platforms, there's the planned Kurganets IFV based off of the new Armata platform. That's only 25 tons compared to the older designs. There's also the CV90.

To help things along, perhaps you could start discussions about these vehicles in the “Discussions about all nations and places” (http://defenseph.net/drp/index.php?board=9.0), and I can simply link them here.  :)

Ominae

  • Timawan
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Re: Fire Support Vehicle (FSV) options for the AFP
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2018, 07:46:07 PM »
Unless the Bionix is still being ready to be produced by ST Kinetics, the only way to get them in case it's an option is through the SAF getting rid of them since their Next Gen IFVs are coming.

LionFlyer

  • Timawan
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 197
    • View Profile
Re: Fire Support Vehicle (FSV) options for the AFP
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2018, 05:19:07 AM »
Unless the Bionix is still being ready to be produced by ST Kinetics, the only way to get them in case it's an option is through the SAF getting rid of them since their Next Gen IFVs are coming.

The Bionix is still available and is produced upon request. But I suspect there will be a minimum order quantity and smaller the number, the higher the unit cost.

The Next Gen IFV is replacing the old M113s in front line service, not the Bionix. Perhaps the earlier Bionix 1 may be kept in reserve but will certainly not be sold.

adroth

  • Administrator
  • Boffin
  • *****
  • Posts: 6628
    • View Profile
    • The ADROTH Project
Re: Fire Support Vehicle (FSV) options for the AFP
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2018, 05:30:08 PM »
Pres. Duterte salutes MID for making Filipinos feel safer, vows P13-B projects
September 21, 2018
SHARE THIS STORY

https://pcoo.gov.ph/news_releases/pres-duterte-salutes-mid-for-making-filipinos-feel-safer-vows-p13-b-projects/

TARLAC — President Rodrigo Roa Duterte on Thursday, September 20, recognized the Mechanized Infantry Division’s (MID) commitment and dedication in protecting the nation during its 12th Activation Anniversary celebration.

“ I congratulate the Mechanized Infantry Division as it celebrates its 12th Activation Anniversary. This occasion does not only embody the service and compassion of our men and women in uniform but also highlights the achievements of our troops in various military campaigns that promote peace and development in our communities,” President Duterte said in his speech at Camp O’Donnell’s multi-purpose hall in Capas, Tarlac.

The Chief Executive said that the Filipino people would never forget the division’s support during the battle in Marawi City because MID “greatly contributed” to the city’s liberation.

“I offer my special salute to our fallen comrades who have gone beyond the call of duty and the courageous troopers who continue to make their sacrifices to defend our land, uphold peace, and secure the freedom that we enjoy today,” he said.

The Commander-in-Chief also recognized the MID’s accomplishments in combat that led to the neutralization of 44 Bangsamoro Islamic Freedom Fighters (BIFF), as well as its support to law enforcement operations that led to the apprehension of drug personalities and the confiscation of loose firearms.

“These noble endeavors, including your assistance in facilitating the surrender of numerous members of the CPP-NPA-NDF and the BIFF during the implementation of martial law in Mindanao, have definitely made our kababayans feel safer in these challenging times,” he said.

He then reiterated that as long as the group performs their mandate under the law, the administration will remain steadfast in supporting them with the necessary tools and resources for the effective fulfillment of their duties as the nation’s protectors.

“I am glad to inform you that under the 2nd Horizon of the Revised AFP Modernization Program, five projects worth over P13 billion will directly benefit the MID,” he beamed.

“I am certain that these projects, which are already in the pipeline, will address the gaps in our defenses as we further strengthen our Armed Forces,” he added.

One example of these projects is the purchase of the mechanized vehicles for the troops.

“Medyo konting pasensiya lang po and again you will have the number of your mechanized vehicles in about two years. Kasi ‘pag inorder ho natin ‘yan, hindi naman talaga sabihin na ready-made. When we order, they manufacture. But I said, itong aabot sa inyo, it’s quite a number of armored vehicles and I’m sure it would help you a lot. There’s a lag time,” President Duterte explained.

Optimistically, the President ended his remarks with his longing to attain a peaceful nation for the Filipinos and the next generation.

“It is our shared responsibility to ensure that our nation we hand over to our children is one that is stronger and more progressive. Together with the AFP and other law enforcement agencies, I ask each of you to continue doing your part so that we may soon realize our aspiration for lasting peace and stability across the nation,” the President said.

Meanwhile, before the anniversary celebration, the President had a briefing on the development plan and ownership of Camp O’Donnell at the Hardin ng Lunas.

Then, the briefing was followed by a capability demonstration of the Mechanized Infantry Division’s defense equipment.###PND