Author Topic: Elbit Type CO-2 Breech Loading 60mm Mortar for Simba and M113 Turret  (Read 15410 times)

eagle from davao

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Video showing how it is operated and mounted inside merkava tank
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AS6KG2LoAMQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

A mockup mounting
https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-2591126f833d90bee677537a6dc8dc48-c

Page 2 of the Elbit brochure for 60mm mortars
http://elbitsystems.com/media/60mm-Mortars_16_B.pdf

Did AFP consider to mount this type of 60mm mortar inside the turret of simba and M113 APC?
This type of mortar will give indirect fire capability for AFP simbas and M113 turreted APC . It can hit targets hiding behind walls, inside trenches, top of building and behind reverse slope. IDF used this mortar from merkava 1 to 3. In merkava 4 they install self-loading type.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 04:34:54 AM by adroth »

mamiyapis

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Re: Elbit Type CO-2 Breech Loading 60mm Mortar for Simba and M113 Turret
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2018, 07:15:31 PM »
A 60mm mortar wouldn't be optimal for the Simba or M113, by the simple reason it is man-portable. The smallest caliber the Army is considering is already an 81mm mortar, with the ideal being a 120mm.

The whole reason you mount a mortar on a vehicle is because it is something you can't readily carry with infantry. Might as well pack the biggest tube you can into a vehicle.

eagle from davao

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Re: Elbit Type CO-2 Breech Loading 60mm Mortar for Simba and M113 Turret
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2018, 10:12:52 PM »
A 60mm mortar wouldn't be optimal for the Simba or M113, by the simple reason it is man-portable. The smallest caliber the Army is considering is already an 81mm mortar, with the ideal being a 120mm.

The whole reason you mount a mortar on a vehicle is because it is something you can't readily carry with infantry. Might as well pack the biggest tube you can into a vehicle.

Sir, I agree it should be 81mm but currently , but no one manufactures that caliber. Only Elbit manufactures this type of mortar on 60mm caliber . AFP dont have the budget to do research and development for 81 mm vehicle mounted breech loading type. 
We settle for Elbit C02 type 60mm mortar which available in the market.

Judah14

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Re: Elbit Type CO-2 Breech Loading 60mm Mortar for Simba and M113 Turret
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2018, 10:35:37 PM »
Sir, I agree it should be 81mm but currently , but no one manufactures that caliber. Only Elbit manufactures this type of mortar on 60mm caliber . AFP dont have the budget to do research and development for 81 mm vehicle mounted breech loading type. 
We settle for Elbit C02 type 60mm mortar which available in the market.
I think 120 mm would be better as there are already 120 mm breech loading mortars available, such as the Patria NEMO.

eagle from davao

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Re: Elbit Type CO-2 Breech Loading 60mm Mortar for Simba and M113 Turret
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2018, 11:08:20 PM »
Sir, I agree it should be 81mm but currently , but no one manufactures that caliber. Only Elbit manufactures this type of mortar on 60mm caliber . AFP dont have the budget to do research and development for 81 mm vehicle mounted breech loading type. 
We settle for Elbit C02 type 60mm mortar which available in the market.
I think 120 mm would be better as there are already 120 mm breech loading mortars available, such as the Patria NEMO.

Sir, I think 120mm mortar tube wont fit to the existing turret of the simba. There is not enough room . The 60mm mortar is an additional weapon for the existing 0.50 cal HMG or 7.62mm GPMG mounted in the simba turret.  The current size of the turret is just enough room for the gunner and 0.50 cal HMG and barely 250mm space between the left side wall of the turret next to the gunner. If you put the 120mm mortar or 81mm mortar, the AFP will replace the existing turret with bigger diameter turret just to accommodate it. It makes the upgrading more expensive .
What I had in mind, the 60mm mortar will add indirect capability to the existing 0.50 cal turret . Considering  the recoil of 81mm and 120mm mortar will stressed the tires and leaf spring of simba. It might affect stability.
Historically, IDF did not use 81mm or 120mm mortar for this application. 60mm mortar was fine for  them. The 60mm mortar have enough firepower to deal with infantry threats . If there are threats that 60mm cant handle, they can ask for bigger artillery support.

LionFlyer

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Re: Elbit Type CO-2 Breech Loading 60mm Mortar for Simba and M113 Turret
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2018, 11:25:28 PM »
The reason the Israelis went for a mortar in their MBTs were to deal with AT teams getting close to them (experiences from the Sinai in 73). E.g it was more defense minded. They have some obvious utility in an urban setting like Lebanon but accuracy would clearly be an issue as the mortar is internally mounted. Operationally speaking, in a resource scarce AFP, a mortar carried by a Simba has a more restricted range of usage than say, dismounted and carried by the mortar team, who can bring to areas and places not accessible by the Simba. It is question whether how the Simba's are deployed and used.

The Israelis have many fantastic technology, but it is important to remember that requirements/doctrine drive technology. They have some unique pieces of kit that were designed for their use that has a limited market elsewhere. The Merk is one example.

However, if you are considering it as a dedicated, mobile mortar system to support the infantry, then it is a different story. In that case, the vehicle confers better mobility advantages for larger caliber systems. Hence you see systems for 82 ~ 120mm calibre (Scorpion, Spear, 2R2M, SRAM)
« Last Edit: January 06, 2018, 11:33:19 PM by LionFlyer »

Judah14

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Re: Elbit Type CO-2 Breech Loading 60mm Mortar for Simba and M113 Turret
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2018, 11:30:15 PM »
Sir, I think 120mm mortar tube wont fit to the existing turret of the simba. There is not enough room . The 60mm mortar is an additional weapon for the existing 0.50 cal HMG or 7.62mm GPMG mounted in the simba turret.  The current size of the turret is just enough room for the gunner and 0.50 cal HMG and barely 250mm space between the left side wall of the turret next to the gunner. If you put the 120mm mortar or 81mm mortar, the AFP will replace the existing turret with bigger diameter turret just to accommodate it. It makes the upgrading more expensive .
What I had in mind, the 60mm mortar will add indirect capability to the existing 0.50 cal turret . Considering  the recoil of 81mm and 120mm mortar will stressed the tires and leaf spring of simba. It might affect stability.
Historically, IDF did not use 81mm or 120mm mortar for this application. 60mm mortar was fine for  them. The 60mm mortar have enough firepower to deal with infantry threats . If there are threats that 60mm cant handle, they can ask for bigger artillery support.
Well I had the M113 in mind regarding the 120 mm mortar. The 60 mm mortar would be appropriate for the Simba though.

mamiyapis

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Re: Elbit Type CO-2 Breech Loading 60mm Mortar for Simba and M113 Turret
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2018, 11:47:44 PM »
As it stands, LionFlyer is right. The Israeli usage of the breech-loading 60mm mortar for their MBTs has mainly been driven by a need for indirect anti-personnel firepower and defeating ATGM teams in defilade or cover, that cannot be reached by MG fire. The intention of the new Mortar Carrier acquisition project is to equip our mechanized infantry with a mobile indirect fire asset in the vein of a mini-artillery piece, partially driven by Marawi experiences but also by our own doctrine. It's a support asset for dismounted and assaulting infantry, with an anti-structure job clearly in mind.

MID is actually requesting for a 120mm mortar in an M113, but has been stymied by the fact our doctrine states any 'tubes bigger than 81mm belong to the artillery battalions and cannot be brought into use by MID.


What the MID actually wants

But your suggestion is interesting for a number of reasons:

1. anti-ambush firepower
2. signalling or illumination capability
3. light indirect fire support

If the breech-loading units use the same type of ammunition the AFP has in stock, it could allow the Simba and M113 to gain additional capabilities. The question now is how to integrate the mortar into the turrets in question?

adroth

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Re: Elbit Type CO-2 Breech Loading 60mm Mortar for Simba and M113 Turret
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2018, 12:56:36 AM »
Video showing how it is operated and mounted inside merkava tank
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AS6KG2LoAMQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

A mockup mounting
https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-2591126f833d90bee677537a6dc8dc48-c

Page 2 of the Elbit brochure for 60mm mortars
http://elbitsystems.com/media/60mm-Mortars_16_B.pdf

Did AFP consider to mount this type of 60mm mortar inside the turret of simba and M113 APC?
This type of mortar will give indirect fire capability for AFP simbas and M113 turreted APC . It can hit targets hiding behind walls, inside trenches, top of building and behind reverse slope. IDF used this mortar from merkava 1 to 3. In merkava 4 they install self-loading type.

Did you envision a repeat of a Marawi-like situation as a use-case for this recommendation?

Interesting weapon system. Not all that room in either the Simba or the M113 turret for this though. A Merkava has a pretty massive turret.

« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 04:25:56 AM by adroth »

Magoo

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Re: Elbit Type CO-2 Breech Loading 60mm Mortar for Simba and M113 Turret
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2018, 08:35:06 AM »
Wouldn’t the 40mm AGL give the same function, with a limited angles of fire and range though, but it is more compact hence the higher the probability ot can be shoehorned inside a Simbas turret.

eagle from davao

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Re: Elbit Type CO-2 Breech Loading 60mm Mortar for Simba and M113 Turret
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2018, 03:59:17 PM »
Did you envision a repeat of a Marawi-like situation as a use-case for this recommendation?

Interesting weapon system. Not all that room in either the Simba or the M113 turret for this though. A Merkava has a pretty massive turret
[/quote]
Sir, in marawi and other conflicts that before that,indirect fire for AFP armor units are
needed. Anti tank team armed with RPG can close-in using reverse slopes, irrigation canals, walls ,trenches. If an indirect fire weapon is available , these threats can be taken out immediately. The turret gunner can switch from 0.50cal hmg to 60mm mortar in seconds. No need to call for artillery support which takes more time.
The simba turret is more or less 1meter in diameter. A 200 to 250 mm space from the left side of the turret is enough to fit this small mortar.

eagle from davao

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Re: Elbit Type CO-2 Breech Loading 60mm Mortar for Simba and M113 Turret
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2018, 04:11:02 PM »
As it stands, LionFlyer is right. The Israeli usage of the breech-loading 60mm mortar for their MBTs has mainly been driven by a need for indirect anti-personnel firepower and defeating ATGM teams in defilade or cover, that cannot be reached by MG fire. The intention of the new Mortar Carrier acquisition project is to equip our mechanized infantry with a mobile indirect fire asset in the vein of a mini-artillery piece, partially driven by Marawi experiences but also by our own doctrine. It's a support asset for dismounted and assaulting infantry, with an anti-structure job clearly in mind.
MID is actually requesting for a 120mm mortar in an M113, but has been stymied by the fact our doctrine states any 'tubes bigger than 81mm belong to the artillery battalions and cannot be brought into use by MID.
What the MID actually wants
But your suggestion is interesting for a number of reasons:
1. anti-ambush firepower
2. signalling or illumination capability
3. light indirect fire support

If the breech-loading units use the same type of ammunition the AFP has in stock, it could allow the Simba and M113 to gain additional capabilities. The question now is how to integrate the mortar into the turrets in question?
Exactly sir. The simba turret is more or less 1meter indiameter.

eagle from davao

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Re: Elbit Type CO-2 Breech Loading 60mm Mortar for Simba and M113 Turret
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2018, 04:39:23 PM »
The current size of turret for simba is more or less 1 meter in diameter. on the right side, is a 0.50cal hmg. the left side is for the gunner. The left wall of the turret is slightly sloped with estimated space of 200 to 250mm. This space is enough to install Elbit C02 mortar. The leftmost top of the turret can be cut by acetylene torch 100x 100 opening. The opening will be secured by a perimeter of 50x50mm steel bar welded on top  and waterproof sealant to keep away water . a hinged steel cover to secure the whole perimeter that can be close and open manually from the inside.

http://defenseph.net/drp/index.php?topic=2714.0

The picture shows there is enough room to install.


                               
The ammo of the ordinary mortar

eagle from davao

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Re: Elbit Type CO-2 Breech Loading 60mm Mortar for Simba and M113 Turret
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2018, 04:48:10 PM »
As for the 60mm mortar ammo,it is common to the standard NATO rounds. The current AFP inventory is suitable for Elbit C0-2 vehicle mounted breech loading 60mm mortar

see the link.

http://elbitsystems.com/pdf-category/company-brochures/artillery/

eagle from davao

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Re: Elbit Type CO-2 Breech Loading 60mm Mortar for Simba and M113 Turret
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2018, 05:09:17 PM »
Sir, Simba are commonly use for convoy escort, infantry fire support and ammo runs between base and front units. An additional weapon such as 60mm breech loading mortar mounted side by side with 0.50 cal HMG will boost its firepower. It will provide the infantry with indirect fire support. No need to wait for 81mm mortar for fire support.