Author Topic: Surface Attack Aicraft / Lead-In Fighter Trainer Acquisition Project  (Read 21802 times)

Ayoshi

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Re: 2nd batch of FA-50s incoming
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2016, 05:33:54 AM »
Philippine Air Force KAI FA-50PH(#003, #004)Arrival in Clark Air Base December 1, 2016

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UcxKU27ZfM


Two new Air Force fighter planes land in Clark | inquirer.net - December 01, 2016
Quote
The second batch of a dozen fighter planes ordered from South Korea landed in Clark before noon on Thursday, raising the number of existing jets of the Philippine Air Force to four.
Piloted by two South Koreans, the FA-50s with tail numbers 003 and 004 arrived at Clark Air Base at 11:41 a.m. and 11:42 a.m.

The two fighter jets left Kaohsiung, Taiwan, around 10:10 a.m. and were met by the first two FA-50s with tail numbers 0001 and 002 over Pangasinan. They made a diamond formation over Clark Air Base and were met with a water cannon salute when they landed.

Two new FA-50 fighter planes for the Philippine Air Force arrive at Haribon Hangar, Clark Air Base, Pampanga on Dec. 1. Niño Jesus Orbeta/Philippine Daily Inquirer


Ayoshi

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Re: 2nd batch of FA-50s incoming
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2016, 07:09:49 AM »
Additional Photos from Philippine Air Force FB Page


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mamiyapis

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Re: Surface Attack Aicraft / Lead-In Fighter Trainer Acquisition Project
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2016, 08:41:28 PM »
Welcome home 003 and 004! Then there were 4.

adroth

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Re: 2nd batch of FA-50s incoming
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2016, 09:23:04 PM »
« Last Edit: December 01, 2016, 09:26:25 PM by adroth »

r3mu511

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Re: Surface Attack Aicraft / Lead-In Fighter Trainer Acquisition Project
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2016, 09:14:09 AM »
tl/dr version

rough approximation of elm-2032 fire control radar in fa-50 gives an air-to-air range performance of ~80 km (with the high-power transmitter configuration) using a 16" antenna size...

an old (2013-ish) KAI video (from the old forum) indicated a slightly less than ~100 km range which would mean an antenna slightly under 20" in size...

full version

watching the vids of the new fa50 pair as well as the older vids of the initial pair in the Balikatan exercise, it struck me that all these hidef vids of the fa50 carrying external fuel tanks would allow one to approximate the diameter of the fa50 radome, from which one can then gauge the antenna size of it's elm-2032 fcr and with a little math approximate it's range performance as compared to public domain data and the manufacturer's catalog info...

as it happens, in a post in the "A2A refueling options for the FA-50" thread (http://defenseph.net/drp/index.php?topic=820.msg2078#msg2078), @horge mentioned that the 150-gallon external fuel tank (Aero-1C) which the fa50 uses is around ~21.7" or so in diameter...

using that info and looking at stills from the fa50 hidef vids, the radome would appear to be around ~18.6" in diameter... now for argument's sake let's just say the antenna of the elm-2032 is only slightly smaller than that at around 16" in diameter...

from the IAI Elta catalog (http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/files/0/38030.pdf) we know that the performance of the largest antenna size and highest transmitter power rating is given as ~148 km range in air-to-air mode (ie. from the catalog: 80 nm air-to-air, 80 nm air-to-ground, 160 nm air-to-sea)...

now in Friedman's "World Naval Weapon Systems", the elm-2032 is listed as having a 75 cm diameter antenna size as the maximum... now because both Friedman and the Elta catalog list the maximum weight as 100 kg (where weight depends on antenna configuration), it's possible that the 75 cm maximum diamter also applies to the catalog specs, so we make the assumption that the 75 cm antenna size applies to the ~148 km range performance...

so what we now have is: maximum antenna size of ~29.5" (ie. 75 cm) gives ~148 km range performance (at the same target rcs as used in the catalog)... and we also approximated the fa50 antenna size to be ~16"...

now from radar engineering we know that a slotted planar array antenna (like that used by the elm2032) has a range performance which is proportional to the fourth-root of the product of the antenna area and antenna gain (holding all other factors constant; see ref: "Radar Systems", Skolnik)... and we also know that the antenna gain is directly proportional to it's area... hence range is proportional to the fourth-root of the antenna area squared (again holding all other factors constant)...

given the maximum antenna diamter of 29.5", we thus get a maximum antenna area of ~684.8 sqin... and given an fa50 antenna diameter of ~16", we thus get an fa50 antenna area of ~201.1 sqin... thus the ratio of antenna areas (ie. fa50 to maximum) is ~0.294, which when squared gives ~0.086... and finally, taking the fourth-root of this squared ratio gives ~0.542

when we apply this ~0.542 scaling factor to the maximum range performance of ~148 km (since this range value is what is applicable to the maximum antenna size of ~29.5"), we get ~80.2 km as our approximation for the ~16" antenna size in the fa50...

so given ~148 km as the maximum air-to-air range for a full-size elm2032 antenna, we approximate the fa50 version as having a ~80 km air-to-air range performance (again this is with respect to the same target rcs used in the catalog)...

---

(note 1)

there is actually one further scaling factor we could apply (as was mentioned briefly early on), and this is the transmitter power... this is because range is also proportional to the fourth-root of the transmit power...

now the catalog only states the power draw as ranging from 2-3 KVa (depending on transmitter configuration)... this is not the same as the transmit power however but we can make the assumption that just as the power draw ranges from 0.67 to 1.0 (ie. normalized to the 3 KVa maximum value), we can suppose that the transmit power would also have a proportional range from 0.67 to 1.0 as well...

this means that if the fa50 fcr has a ~80.2 km range performance with the high-power transmitter configuration, then with the low-power transmitter configuration we would expect a range performance of ~72.5 km...

---

(note 2)

as to the question of what was the target rcs used in the Elta catalog, unfortunately it was not stated explicitly hence one could assume the ~148 km max range is the outright maximum performace of the fcr for that mode (ie. instrumented range in air-to-air mode), or one could assume it was based on a large rcs baseline target and scale ranges accordingly for other rcs targets (ie. knowing that range is directly proportional to the fourth-root of target rcs)...

one interesting thing to note is that Friedman gives the look-up air-to-air range as ~102 km (55 nm), which differs from the catalog maximum by a factor of ~0.687, this implies a fourth-power scaling of ~0.22 or roughly one-fifth... one could assume this means Friedman could have been using a target rcs of 1 sqm and the catalog used a target rcs of 5 sqm, or any other such combination preserving the roughly one-fifth relationship...

---

(note 3)

in an old (2013-ish) KAI video which I saw in the old forum, a reference was made to a slightly under 100 km range which would mean an antenna sized at slightly under 20" in diameter...

perhaps one day someone could actually measure the radome (or even antenna) of PAF's fa-50 to check how large (or small) it is...
« Last Edit: December 07, 2016, 09:33:50 AM by r3mu511 »

Ayoshi

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Re: 2nd batch of FA-50s incoming
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2016, 12:04:40 AM »
Formal acceptance, turn over and blessing Ceremony of the 2nd batch of FA-50PH jets

Photos taken from PTV FB Page


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« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 03:03:00 AM by Ayoshi »

r3mu511

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Re: Surface Attack Aicraft / Lead-In Fighter Trainer Acquisition Project
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2016, 06:44:38 AM »
Estimating the range of an oval shaped antenna for an EL/M-2032 radar in the FA-50

tl/dr version

for an oval shaped antenna with dimensions of 15" by 24" the approximate air-to-air range performance is ~95 km... this compares quite well to an old KAI vid with a graphic showing a ~100 km range performance...

full version

starting with the previous calculations for a circular shaped antenna (as depicted in the Elta catalog), I had discussions with @raider (over at pdff) where he posted some pics he had found on closeups of the various elm2032 t-50/ta-50/fa-50 related images on the internet, one of which was quite useful as it provided a frontal view of an oval-shaped antenna with the enclosing radome also in the pic (thus providing a size comparison):



he was also able to find an old vid which showed the work KAI was doing on the elm2032 with the radar depicted scanning (at around the 2 min mark):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7y52AHEb6o

so in my discussion with @raider, I put together this info he found with the previous calculations for a circular antenna to see what performance would be had from an oval shaped antenna on the size scale of what was depicted in the pic and vid he found...

comparison of the radiating slots in the pic vs. the vid clip showed they both had 14 slots in the vertical axis (along it's widest point) and 20 slots along the horizontal axis (also at it's widest point) so it would appear both antenna are similarly sized (or the very least carry the same height to width relative ratio)...

now from the previous size comparison of an aero1c external fuel tank and the fa50 radome as depicted in side views (eg: http://www.update.ph/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/FA-50PH-with-AIM-9-Sidewinder-.jpg), plus the info from @horge's post about the aero1c diameter, the fa50 radome looked to be about 18"-19" in height, which we round up to 20" since this was just done by pixel approximation...

now using the frontal antenna/radome pic provided by @raider, and with a radome height of 20", we can approximate the oval shaped antenna dimensions as 15" height by 24" width (again by doing pixel size comparison)...

from the previous post's calculation we arrived at an approximation of ~80 km for a 16" circular antenna... with a change in shape to an oval antenna of 15" by 24" we need to determine the effect on the range relative to the baseline value we approximated for the circular antenna...

as previously posted, via radar theory we know that the range performance will change proportionally to the fourth-root of the product of the antenna area and antenna gain (all other factors held constant)... and with the gain itself being directly proportional to the area this means the range is proportional to the fourth-root of the area squared, or equivalently the square-root of the antenna area...

this means that the range performance of an oval antenna of H inches height by W inches width, as normalized to the 16" circular antenna's range of ~80 km would yield:

range of oval antenna = 80 km * (pi * H/2 * W/2)^1/2 / (pi * (16/2)^2)^1/2

which will reduce to:

range of oval antenna = 5 km * (H * W)^1/2

(the validity of this approximation formula as normalized to the baseline range value can checked by noting that using a circular antenna of 75 cm or ~29.53" as given by Friedman will yield a range of approx ~148 km as found in the Elta catalog)

plugging in the width and height of the oval antenna we approximated from the pic yields:

range of oval antenna = 5 km * (15 * 24)^1/2 = ~94.87 km

so roughly ~95 km for an oval shaped 15" by 24" antenna... which compares favorably to the ~100 km found in the old vid from KAI on the elm2032 graphic:

« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 06:46:17 AM by r3mu511 »

adroth

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The FA-50PH production line
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2017, 10:41:18 AM »
12 FA-50PHs order . . .

. . . 4 delivered . . .

. . . 2 already used in combat. Usefulness in combat PROVEN . . .

. . . EIGHT more on the way.



Q4 2016 photo of the production line, c/o of the forum's FB extension:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/rpdefense/permalink/1219070244845487/

 

« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 04:52:22 PM by adroth »

adroth

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Next FA-50PH deliveries
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2017, 12:28:40 PM »
. . . are coming.

Next up: #005 & #006

dr demented

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Re: Surface Attack Aicraft / Lead-In Fighter Trainer Acquisition Project
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2017, 08:53:51 PM »
http://www.pna.gov.ph/index.php?idn=&nid=1&rid=965861

Quote
2 more FA-50 jet fighters to arrive Wednesday

MANILA, Feb. 21 (PNA) -- Two more South Korean-made FA-50PH "Fighting Eagle" jet fighters will be arriving in Clark Air Base, Pampanga Wednesday, raising the number of the country's Mach 1.5 capable aircraft to six.

This was confirmed by Philippine Air Force (PAF) spokesperson Col. Antonio Z. Francisco in a statement Tuesday.

He said that these FA-50PHs, with tail numbers 005 and 006, will be landing at Clark Air Base Wednesday around 11 a.m. after their flight from from South Korea.

Francisco said the two jet planes will be welcomed by Air Logistics Command head Major Gen. Arnold A. Mancita and PAF commander Lt. Gen. Edgar R. Fallorina.

With the impending delivery of the pair, only six more FA-50PHs remain to be delivered to the PAF.

The PAF's 12-plane order from Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) is worth PHP18.9 billion.

The FA-50PHs has a top speed of Mach 1.5 or one and a half times the speed of sound and is capable of being fitted air-to-air missiles, including the AIM-9 "Sidewinder" air-to-air and heat-seeking missiles aside from light automatic cannons.

It will act as the country's interim fighter until the Philippines get enough experience of operating fast jet assets and money to fund the acquisition of more capable fighter aircraft.

The FA-50PH design is largely derived from the F-16 "Fighting Falcon", and they have many similarities: use of a single engine, speed, size, cost, and the range of weapons.

KAI's previous engineering experience in license-producing the KF-16 was a starting point for the development of the FA-50PHs.

The aircraft can carry two pilots in tandem seating. The high-mounted canopy developed by Hankuk Fiber is applied with stretched acrylic, providing the pilots with good visibility, and has been tested to offer the canopy with ballistic protection against four-pound objects impacting at 400 knots.

The altitude limit is 14,600 meters (48,000 feet), and airframe is designed to last 8,000 hours of service.

There are seven internal fuel tanks with capacity of 2,655 liters (701 US gallons), five in the fuselage and two in the wings.

An additional 1,710 liters (452 US gallons) of fuel can be carried in the three external fuel tanks.

Trainer variants have a paint scheme of white and red, and aerobatic variants white, black, and yellow.

The FA-50PHs uses a single General Electric F404-102 turbofan engine license-produced by Samsung Techwin, upgraded with a full authority digital engine control system jointly developed by General Electric and KAI.

The engine consists of three-staged fans, seven axial stage arrangement, and an afterburner.

Its engine produces a maximum of 78.7 kN (17,700 lbf) of thrust with afterburner. (PNA)
BNB/PFN



israeli

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Re: Surface Attack Aicraft / Lead-In Fighter Trainer Acquisition Project
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2017, 01:56:59 AM »
Two FA-50s due on Wednesday to bring PHL fighter jets to six —PAF
By JOSEPH TRISTAN ROXAS, GMA News
Published February 21, 2017 2:45pm

Two more FA-50 fighter jets of the Philippine Air Force (PAF) are slated to be delivered in Clark Air Base, Pampanga on Wednesday by its South Korean manufacturer.

PAF spokesperson Col. Antonio Francisco said the delivery of the aircraft, with tail number 005 and 006, brings the total number of FA-50s in the Armed Forces' inventory to six.

Francisco said the arrival of the fighter jets would further strengthen the AFP and boost the training of PAF pilots in case the military acquires more jets.

<snipped>

Francisco said the remaining six FA50s are expected to arrive within the year.

<snipped>

12th BCT

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Re: Surface Attack Aicraft / Lead-In Fighter Trainer Acquisition Project
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2017, 07:27:00 AM »
Do anyone know what the pod-like protrusion on PAF FA50 002  is?

Manokski

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Re: Surface Attack Aicraft / Lead-In Fighter Trainer Acquisition Project
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2017, 10:28:57 AM »
Do anyone know what the pod-like protrusion on PAF FA50 002  is?
Front facing radar warning receiver

adroth

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Re: The FA-50PH production line
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2017, 11:12:28 AM »
Two FA-50s due on Wednesday to bring PHL fighter jets to six —PAF
By JOSEPH TRISTAN ROXAS, GMA News
Published February 21, 2017 2:45pm

Two more FA-50 fighter jets of the Philippine Air Force (PAF) are slated to be delivered in Clark Air Base, Pampanga on Wednesday by its South Korean manufacturer.

PAF spokesperson Col. Antonio Francisco said the delivery of the aircraft, with tail number 005 and 006, brings the total number of FA-50s in the Armed Forces' inventory to six.

Francisco said the arrival of the fighter jets would further strengthen the AFP and boost the training of PAF pilots in case the military acquires more jets.

<snipped>

Francisco said the remaining six FA50s are expected to arrive within the year.

<snipped>

12th BCT

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Re: Surface Attack Aicraft / Lead-In Fighter Trainer Acquisition Project
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2017, 03:06:23 PM »
Thank you, Manokski.

Is this a separate rwr from I presume the plane already comes with?