Defense of the Republic of the Philippines

Quote from: eagle from davao on January 07, 2018, 04:39:23 PM

The current size of turret for simba is more or less 1 meter in diameter. on the right side, is a 0.50cal hmg. the left side is for the gunner. The left wall of the turret is slightly sloped with estimated space of 200 to 250mm. This space is enough to install Elbit C02 mortar. The leftmost top of the turret can be cut by acetylene torch 100x 100 opening. The opening will be secured by a perimeter of 50x50mm steel bar welded on top  and waterproof sealant to keep away water . a hinged steel cover to secure the whole perimeter that can be close and open manually from the inside.

http://defenseph.net/drp/index.php?topic=2714.0

The picture shows there is enough room to install.

Wouldn't that impair the visibility through the left-side vision block?

Sir, if it is impair , a possible solution is to install periscope vision  block (common to M113 driver vision block ) on the left side. This might compensate any visual impairment .

Wouldn’t the 40mm AGL give the same function, with a limited angles of fire and range though, but it is more compact hence the higher the probability ot can be shoehorned inside a Simbas turret.

Sir, 40mm AGL is already installed in some simba turrets. I dont know how many.
The advantage of 60mm mortar round is its amount of TNT content. 40mm Round has more or less 40 grams while the 60mm has 170 grams to 250 grams. The killing radius of 40mm is roughly 5meters while the 60mm mortar has at least 10 meters.

As for the 60mm mortar ammo,it is common to the standard NATO rounds. The current AFP inventory is suitable for Elbit C0-2 vehicle mounted breech loading 60mm mortar

see the link.

http://elbitsystems.com/pdf-category/company-brochures/artillery/

As it stands, LionFlyer is right. The Israeli usage of the breech-loading 60mm mortar for their MBTs has mainly been driven by a need for indirect anti-personnel firepower and defeating ATGM teams in defilade or cover, that cannot be reached by MG fire. The intention of the new Mortar Carrier acquisition project is to equip our mechanized infantry with a mobile indirect fire asset in the vein of a mini-artillery piece, partially driven by Marawi experiences but also by our own doctrine. It's a support asset for dismounted and assaulting infantry, with an anti-structure job clearly in mind.
MID is actually requesting for a 120mm mortar in an M113, but has been stymied by the fact our doctrine states any 'tubes bigger than 81mm belong to the artillery battalions and cannot be brought into use by MID.
What the MID actually wants
But your suggestion is interesting for a number of reasons:
1. anti-ambush firepower
2. signalling or illumination capability
3. light indirect fire support

If the breech-loading units use the same type of ammunition the AFP has in stock, it could allow the Simba and M113 to gain additional capabilities. The question now is how to integrate the mortar into the turrets in question?

Exactly sir. The simba turret is more or less 1meter indiameter.

Quote from: eagle from davao on January 06, 2018, 10:12:52 PM

Sir, I agree it should be 81mm but currently , but no one manufactures that caliber. Only Elbit manufactures this type of mortar on 60mm caliber . AFP dont have the budget to do research and development for 81 mm vehicle mounted breech loading type. 
We settle for Elbit C02 type 60mm mortar which available in the market.

I think 120 mm would be better as there are already 120 mm breech loading mortars available, such as the Patria NEMO.

Sir, I think 120mm mortar tube wont fit to the existing turret of the simba. There is not enough room . The 60mm mortar is an additional weapon for the existing 0.50 cal HMG or 7.62mm GPMG mounted in the simba turret.  The current size of the turret is just enough room for the gunner and 0.50 cal HMG and barely 250mm space between the left side wall of the turret next to the gunner. If you put the 120mm mortar or 81mm mortar, the AFP will replace the existing turret with bigger diameter turret just to accommodate it. It makes the upgrading more expensive .
What I had in mind, the 60mm mortar will add indirect capability to the existing 0.50 cal turret . Considering  the recoil of 81mm and 120mm mortar will stressed the tires and leaf spring of simba. It might affect stability.
Historically, IDF did not use 81mm or 120mm mortar for this application. 60mm mortar was fine for  them. The 60mm mortar have enough firepower to deal with infantry threats . If there are threats that 60mm cant handle, they can ask for bigger artillery support.

Administrator's note: Companion discussion on the forum's FB extension available here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/rpdefense/permalink/1538440042908504/

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Video showing how it is operated and mounted inside merkava tank
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AS6KG2LoAMQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

A mockup mounting
https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-2591126f833d90bee677537a6dc8dc48-c

Page 2 of the Elbit brochure for 60mm mortars
http://elbitsystems.com/media/60mm-Mortars_16_B.pdf

Did AFP consider to mount this type of 60mm mortar inside the turret of simba and M113 APC?
This type of mortar will give indirect fire capability for AFP simbas and M113 turreted APC . It can hit targets hiding behind walls, inside trenches, top of building and behind reverse slope. IDF used this mortar from merkava 1 to 3. In merkava 4 they install self-loading type.