Defense of the Republic of the Philippines

Differences between commando mortar and grenade launcher

1. Sight Elevation - commando mortar drop fire= from 40 degree to 85 degree
                             commando mortar trigger fire-from 0 degree to 85 degree
                            grenade launcher - from 0 degree to 45 degree -

                           commando mortar can fairly accurate hit targets hiding walls, houses and buildings and
                           on rooftop- it can lob bombs into trenches with high probability.

                           grenade launcher can fairly accurate hit on line  -of - sight targets. it can also hit
                           into trenches with lower probability due 45 degree limit of its sight.

2. Cost of Equipment- milkor M32a1 semi-auto grenade launcher is quite expensive-it can range from USD 7,000 to 16,000 a piece. while the commando mortar range from USD 300 to 1700 of most models and make . the most expensive as high as USD 3700 a piece. The M203 Grenade Launcher may fetch between USD 1200 to 3000 a piece. These prices may vary depending on the sources and contracts.

These are some of the links:
https://www.wideopenspaces.com/you-can-buy-an-army-trade-in-m32-grenade-launcher-for-15000/
https://www.tactical-life.com/news/milkor-m32-grenade-launchers-40mm/
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/milkor-m32-mgl-now-available-for-civilian-sale/
https://www.gunbroker.com/All/search?Keywords=m203%20grenade%20launcher
https://lmtdefense.com/product-category/parts/grenade-launcher-parts/
https://dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/iraq-m16a4-rifles-m4-carbines-and-m203-grenade-launchers
https://books.google.com.ph/books?id=nHdUItTL-hMC&pg=PA68&lpg=PA68&dq=cost+of+m203+grenade+launcher+for+sale&source=bl&ots=L-e7yZBVIZ&sig=ACfU3U3LkfKF8_d230gth_zv0NYoG68lpA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjRyv23oYXqAhVNBogKHVeQA3g4ChDoATAJegQICxAB#v=onepage&q=cost%20of%20m203%20grenade%20launcher%20for%20sale&f=false

3. TNT filler of each projectile- Of course we know 60mm mortar bomb has killing radius of 10 to 12 meters [depending on the model] compared to 40mm grenade projectile. 60mm bombs can penetrate better overhead protection .

https://elbitsystems.com/media/Land-Catalog-margemot-Hardcover_11_Web.pdf

4. Load- here the 40mm grenade launcher is lighter and easier to hump around compared to 60mm mortar.

5. Range - commando mortar have more range . it can increase its range by adding increment. Whereas 40mm grenade launcher is a fixed catridge.


       

more info and video on 60mm commando mortar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vkHwLxhOgw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFndoKYV3dA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qQl9Yg_DYs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfkOeHQXAaM

https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2013/11/60mm-mortars-go-back-armscote-good/

New Zealand uses 60mm commando mortar
http://www.army.mil.nz/our-capability/firepower/default.htm

Polish Commando mortar
https://www.defence24.com/light-polish-lm-60-mortars
https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/amp/2012/01/mortars/


Comparison between 60mm  commando mortar to 40mm grenade launcher
https://books.google.com.ph/books?id=sjmNAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA182&lpg=PA182&dq=combat+uses+of+60mm+commando+mortar&source=bl&ots=vrGlKJ5QSF&sig=ACfU3U1f0bzxfmKu8IW6p3Iazm4YSM4mTQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjn-I-Y2YLqAhWOF4gKHR98C-YQ6AEwEHoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=combat%20uses%20of%2060mm%20commando%20mortar&f=false

Question: which is better indirect fire support for rifle platoon? 60mm commando mortar or 40mm grenade launcher?
parameters of discussion
1] firepower
2] infantry load
3] cost of weapon and ammo
4] cost of maintenance
5] combat reliability and effectiveness
6] why european and middle east infantry uses commando mortar compared to US infantry
7] history of combat uses- strength and weakness

60mm commando mortar references
https://cove.army.gov.au/article/lightweight-handheld-mortars-suitable-and-effective-platform-be-organic-rifle-platoons
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirtenberger_M6C-210
https://elbitsystems.com/media/60mm-Mortars-3.pdf
https://www.yugoimport.com/en/proizvodi/60-mm-m70-commando-mortar-0
https://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/mortar/60mm.html
https://www.edrmagazine.eu/two-in-one-rheinmetalls-new-60mm-mortar-for-infantry-and-special-forces

40mm grenade launcher references
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milkor_MGL
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M203_grenade_launcher
https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m433.htm

british 51mm mortar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-inch_mortar
https://www.drdo.gov.in/51mm-mortar-and-ammunition

Is this true? Not mentioned  in previous post.

https://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htada/20190125.aspx

Somebody can confirm this?

Sir, does the PN have a short list of diesel-electric submarines ?

A link paid a tribute to R.Lee Ermey

hope you like the the personal quotes

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000388/bio?ref_=nm_dyk_trv_sm#spouse

I interviewed the gunner and the vehicle commander. They can fire the weapon 50 cal. Using three ways, one using the electric solenoid,secondly,using the cable attached to foot trigger and lastly, by manually pressing the trigger(as last option). For the first two options, the two hands are free to traverse and elevate while pressing foot pedal trigger using its right foot. these two hands can load and fire the mortar at the same time. The two weapons' line of sight are parallel. For example, the gunner will acquire target using the sight periscope. Fire few rounds to adjust HMG fire. Once, adjustment fire is corrected. The gunner press the foot trigger to fire it. Once the target are pinned down, the gunner while load the mortar and adjust elevation. Then fire the mortar. The may fire alternately both weapons till target are destroyed or neutralized.

The simba weapon system can be further improve using off the shelf, digital cameras and small LED touch screen tablets. Tablets are installed in the driver seat, passenger seat and provided with  joystick and trigger. And replace the manual traverse and elevation with DC motor driven gearboxes. The driver and passenger may control and fire the weapon. This may allow the gunner to load and fire the mortar.

These are just possibilities but doable both technically and economically.

AFP must improve the simba for it is widely used and deployed to all Infantry divisions . It is the workhorse of MID.

Quote from: eagle from davao on January 09, 2018, 08:20:22 PM

Sir, if it is impair , a possible solution is to install periscope vision  block (common to M113 driver vision block ) on the left side. This might compensate any visual impairment .

There is only so much cutting into a structure that you can do before you compromise integrity. The PA would need advice from GKN Stanley, the designer, to see if there are any unintended consequences.

Either that, or you need a whole new turret.
[/quote]
Sir, I got suggestions for the installation to avoid or minimize visual impairment.
1] Inside the turret. Locate at least three existing points to bolt the mounting bracket for mortar. these points must be strong enough to
    absorb the recoil and stabilize it. If 4 points are available, the better.
2] Then  fabricate a single piece bracket to connect 3 or 4 points. The material must be structural steel ASTM 53 . A factor of safety of 5
    is the minimum. This bracket must be design to allow 3 axis installation adjustment for the mortar. It can adjust the height, lateral
    and forward position of the mortar. Please refer to the mockup installation picture.
3] In the mortar mounting , the installer can adjust the mortar in a manner  it will not interfere with the ff;
     a] 0.50 cal hmg operation and its mounting.
     b] the position of the gunner sight and operation.
     c] the left side vision blocks are not totally block or impaired.
     d] top opening is not expose to bullet flash or threat of penetration.
     e] The gunner seat can be adjusted to allow him to operate and fire the two weapons efficiently.
4] After all the adjustment in the turret are done, the top opening can be cut using acytelene torch or diamond disc cutter.
       A 150 x100mm is suggested. This can be enlarged or scale down just enough for the mortar to swing between 45 deg. to 85 deg.
5] To protect the opening from rain and bullet flash or projectile penetration ,  An angle bar 10x 50x50mm will be welded around the
    perimeter of the opening . A silicone sealant can be applied around it to prevent moisture to seep in. If angular bar not available , flat
    bar of 15mm x 50mm can be use.
6] Fabricate a steel cover hinged to the angular bar. This will cover the opening from rain. It must overlap completely  the opening.  I
    suggest a 5mm thick steel plate will be used. Material is cold rolled steel. The cover can be open and close from the outside or from
    the inside.

If there are other suggestion on how to install this , I will be happy  to read it.