Defense of the Republic of the Philippines

General Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: adroth on November 10, 2016, 07:22:46 AM

Title: Damage Control training @ PN
Post by: adroth on November 10, 2016, 07:22:46 AM
From: https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/damage.htm

Damage Control

Battle is the most severe test of a ship. Preparing a ship for battle begins long before the general alarm sounds. A thorough knowledge by all hands of the ship's systems and ongoing maintenance is integral to preparation for battle. This ensures that when pushed to the limit the systems perform to maximum capability. All personnel should strive for a complete knowledge of the ship's systems and the damage control procedures required to resist or control damage. This knowledge provides depth in the survivability organization by preparing personnel to assume the duties of seniors who may become casualties of the battle. Any weakness or failure to function at design capability is a weak link in the ship's ability to survive.

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Title: Re: Damage Control training @ PN
Post by: adroth on June 06, 2018, 03:20:16 AM
From: https://www.facebook.com/groups/rpdefense/permalink/1683970421688798/

RIMPAC 2018| Fleet Training and Doctrine Center (FTDC) of the Philippine Fleet oversaw the conduct of the Special Operational Readiness Evaluation (ORE) onboard BRP Davao Del Sur (LD602) and BRP Andres Bonifacio (FF17) to ensure the operational readiness of the ships and crew as it prepares for its International Defense and Security Engagement (IDSE) in Hawaii.

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Title: Re: Damage Control training @ PN
Post by: adroth on June 06, 2018, 03:22:53 AM
From: https://www.facebook.com/groups/rpdefense/permalink/1650213608397813/

Ship’s riders’ trains for Survival

Commanding Officer, BRP Gregorio del Pilar (FF15), Cmdr Santiago Pacis Jr PN (GSC) emphasizes the importance of emergency preparedness during the ship’s voyage to participate in the multilateral naval exercise codenamed, KOMODO 2018.

“It is our responsibility to remain prepared for emergencies, everyone must learn how to survive in the ship,” he stated.

Members of the PN contingent experienced how to use personal protective of equipment such as Emergency Escape Breathing Device (EEBD) and Self-Contained Breathing Apparatus (SCBA). This was followed by demonstration of different fire fighting tactics to combat fire.


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Title: Re: Damage Control training @ PN
Post by: adroth on June 06, 2018, 03:23:21 AM
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Title: Re: Damage Control training @ PN
Post by: jetmech on June 09, 2018, 07:08:04 AM
From: https://www.facebook.com/groups/rpdefense/permalink/1683970421688798/

RIMPAC 2018| Fleet Training and Doctrine Center (FTDC) of the Philippine Fleet oversaw the conduct of the Special Operational Readiness Evaluation (ORE) onboard BRP Davao Del Sur (LD602) and BRP Andres Bonifacio (FF17) to ensure the operational readiness of the ships and crew as it prepares for its International Defense and Security Engagement (IDSE) in Hawaii.

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The PN could have used the money to purchase new BDUs for firefighter's ensemble/ gloves, other firefighting equipment (even NFTI) to equip repair lockers on ships. You can see only two have protective gear (this was on the LSD, I think). A team usually have 5 to 6 members. Have not learned. Too excited to show-off for RIMPAC?
Title: Re: Damage Control training @ PN
Post by: adroth on June 09, 2018, 10:18:05 AM
The PN could have used the money to purchase new BDUs for firefighter's ensemble/ gloves, other firefighting equipment (even NFTI) to equip repair lockers on ships. You can see only two have protective gear (this was on the LSD, I think). A team usually have 5 to 6 members. Have not learned. Too excited to show-off for RIMPAC?

Yup, this was on the LSD.

On the matter of the size of the team, check this out

http://defenseph.net/drp/index.php?topic=623.msg11257#msg11257
Title: Re: Damage Control training @ PN
Post by: jetmech on June 09, 2018, 11:43:00 AM
   It seems training is not standardized or damage control "is to each his own." The three Del Pilars came from one source and were trained longer (DC were all the same concept). I suspect the two personnel seen on the simulated firefighting primary station is the flight deck (asbestos clad suits). It was awkward to see them with helmets, since their head cover is supposed to be the same material as the garment.  I even saw an image (from another thread) of what was supposed to be Damage Control Central (DCC) on a conference room :(. My experience, DCC is down at main engineering, Chief Engineer (CHENG) runs the whole DC evolution. Unless PNs chief engineers likes to hang around ward rooms & conference rooms (it's not hot).
Title: Re: Damage Control training @ PN
Post by: jetmech on June 09, 2018, 12:30:00 PM
   Just to elaborate, Damage Control Central (DCC) contains all the information of the ship, from pipe location, hatches, circuit breakers, magazines, crew quarters etc, through maps/ drawings, necessary to fight whatever damage the ship will encounter.  Seeing being done on a conference room, not realistic. If DCC gets taken out, contingency is to move to another repair locker where the same maps & drawings, comms are available. "Train the way you fight." RIMPAC is to show you're capable fighting force.
Title: Re: Damage Control training @ PN
Post by: adroth on June 11, 2018, 12:53:26 AM
"Train the way you fight." RIMPAC is to show you're capable fighting force.

C/o shoulder tap from PN personnel that saw your post

Quote
. . . I kinda agree with the sentiments of one retired Admiral on PN joining RIMPAC:

It would've been better if we only sent personnel rather than skip the scheduled maintenance, needlessly guzzling fuel and being too "show-off".

Why?

According to that Admiral, we could've just sent these personnel aboard one of our allies' ship as ship's riders, and join their drills and functions. That way we'll be able to learn drills and true naval warfighting skills, including SOP's on highly-modern ships so we can apply them once we get our own...

Title: Re: Damage Control training @ PN
Post by: Fortis93 on June 11, 2018, 01:42:05 AM
I cringed when I saw the pic of what was being billed as DC Central on the Davao day Sur, as it looks like it was just one of the wardrooms. A DC Central is usually deep inside the ship and has the communications, charts, gauges/displays/monitors of vital systems to coordinate damage control efforts. DC Central is also manned 24/7 with watch standers monitoring systems and are ready to coordinate damage control efforts. The more I see pictures of the interior of the Tarlac Class, the more the claims that it is built to civilian specs ring truer and truer. I see a lot of long p ways without water tight doors to set flooding and fire boundaries, a lack of DC fittings, lots of spaces with exterior portholes, lots of flammable false bulkheads rather than steel bulkheads that are part of the ship’s structure, even the deck on the well deck seems to be smooth and lacks any type of non skid material. As pointed out by Jetmech the fire fighting suit worn by the sailors in the picture is usually worn on the flight deck. I have seen pics of hose teams and DC teams on the GDP Class ships and their FF suit and equipment such as their helmets and SCBA are pretty much the same as what the US use. So it seems DC equipment is not standard fleet wide. As for the wisdom of sending ships vs observers, I’m kind of torn. Maintenance being deferred is never good unless absolutely necessary. The PN has been sending observers for years, but there is something to be said about doing and experiencing something on your own.
Title: Re: Damage Control training @ PN
Post by: jetmech on June 11, 2018, 11:51:11 AM
      I’m not trying to insult or put down the organization, just disappointed to see the navy has long way to go in one important facet of naval warfare, damage control. May 2011 was when the PF-15 was transferred to the PN.  A lot of knowledge and skill sets have been gained ever since with follow-up acquisition of 2 more Hamilton class ships. Seven years have past! So, what do they (leaders in charge of manpower education & training) have to show with regards to at least adapting/ or standardizing their own damage control education/ program? I could point out some other minor observations like some ship riders (SEALS & marines) seems to get their first experience in basic firefighting and live hose use  already underway. That should have been on a school house setting. They learn how to become back-up manpower to the ship’s damage control organization. The ship riders have to understand, once onboard, it’s HOME. Onboard, they get to know their battle stations (mustering point) in case “battle stations” is called. They learn with ship’s main crew by participating in drills and learning where the repair lockers are and how to set material conditions (Yoke/ Zebra/ William in securing hatches, scuttles etc). 
   Using live hoses for drills/ training is a waste of water supply vital to cooling spaces with essential electronic gears.  Wait till the PN get hold of the new Korean frigates. Do the sailors & officers think air conditioning and chill water (CHW) supply is for their comfort? In the Persian Gulf, if one of the ship’s cooling systems or water supply malfunctions, water rationing is enforced on the crew, not to the spaces where the vital electronics are used or located. Air conditioning is shut-off on sleeping quarters and non-essential spaces. Hurricane fans are distributed, though, but it’s horrible. Damage control personnel & work center technicians must have the knowledge where to jumper/ re-route a damage chill water supply line to let's say the radar systems from another space or side of the ship. So, to whoever is reading this from the PN, “are you there yet?”
Title: Re: Damage Control training @ PN
Post by: mayk on June 13, 2018, 12:53:37 PM
Do the sailors & officers think air conditioning and chill water (CHW) supply is for their comfort? In the Persian Gulf, if one of the ship’s cooling systems or water supply malfunctions, water rationing is enforced on the crew, not to the spaces where the vital electronics are used or located. Air conditioning is shut-off on sleeping quarters and non-essential spaces. Hurricane fans are distributed, though, but it’s horrible. Damage control personnel & work center technicians must have the knowledge where to jumper/ re-route a damage chill water supply line to let's say the radar systems from another space or side of the ship. So, to whoever is reading this from the PN, “are you there yet?”

Chilled Water Air Conditioning... one of the perennial weaknesses of the PN. Just look at how many ships have been retrofitted with split type (residential/commercial) air conditioning. I've even seen one with window type A/C.

Any equipment more complex than a piston diesel engine is not well maintained by the PN. Water distilling units, auxiliary power generation, washer and drier and even ice makers when they break down, they get replaced with residential or commercial grade equipment. I've seen residential gensets in use for the Aguinaldo class at the docks. Residential washer on some Andrada class.
Title: Re: Damage Control training @ PN
Post by: adroth on June 13, 2018, 01:12:09 PM
Moving Damage Control discussions on the RIMPAC thread here instead.
Title: Re: Damage Control training @ PN
Post by: adroth on June 13, 2018, 01:19:09 PM
Skills gaps were also noticed in another discussion about personnel protection equipment for PN gun crews.

Interesting reaction to a photo of the BRP Pangasinan conducting a Gunnex without proper protective gear

From: https://www.facebook.com/groups/AFPModernizationToday/permalink/1242704839196634/

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More photos of the Gunnex. C/o of the BRP Pangasinan FB page

From: https://www.facebook.com/brppangasinan/videos/1722989511300496/

Circa 2016

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In contrast, the crew of the BRP Miguel Malvar appeared up to WWII specs

Contrast the crew above with the crew of the Miguel Malvar

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Title: Re: Damage Control training @ PN
Post by: adroth on June 13, 2018, 02:04:55 PM
An Aussie perspective c/o a long-time forum member

https://www.facebook.com/groups/rpdefense/permalink/1693860910699749/?comment_id=1693879590697881&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D

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Title: Re: Damage Control training @ PN
Post by: jetmech on June 13, 2018, 02:28:51 PM
  Who trains who? Is there a school house (even for basic firefighting) for incoming recruits? I have seen sailors with DC rating (MOS) on the watch standing boards of some ships posted in the forum. Are they real Damage Control specialists? If yes, that means they have advanced & specialized DC training? Is there a formal school for them, complete with facilities that really gets flooded or set on fire and taught how to maintain & repair DC equipment, like water pumps, toilets, showers & CHT (Collection, Holding & Transfer tank/s). When will those sailors from the 3 Del Pilar class rotate out of sea duty and encouraged to be instructors? There should be at least 2-3 school house locations to provide refresher training (also incentive for drawing instructors to apply due to location).
  My training and exposure to DC was being ship's company (not squadron, different firefighting approach, still the same science). Also, each ship has a Damage Control Training Team (DCTT) whose main purpose to ensure all drill scenarios are simulated like the real one. It is also the one graded by inspection teams from Type Commanders (TYCOMs). If you fail, the ship is not ready. I was "volunteered" to join and had to learn it from advanced shipboard firefighting course (know how to plug & brace) since I'm supposed to train the same qualified people manning the repair lockers. Kind of embarrassing if I was clueless when I write-up a drill scenario. Not claiming to be an expert, but I learned the importance of Damage Control. PN still fortunate, they don't have to worry about CBR (Chemical Biological Radiological) scenarios right now.

   
Title: Re: Damage Control training @ PN
Post by: girder on June 13, 2018, 03:28:44 PM
This thread reminded me of this old paper circa-2001:

Araojo, A. (2001). Towards a responsive education and skills training program in preparation for PN modernization. AFP Joint Command and Staff College. (http://www.mediafire.com/file/rn3dkhctriu5f17/Araojo%2C%20A.%20%282001%29.%20Towards%20a%20responsive%20education%20and%20skills%20training%20program%20in%20preparation%20for%20PN%20modernization.pdf)

Of particular note from the executive summary:
Quote
Initial findings of the study during the documentary analysis and interviews, revealed that indeed, the existing PN Education and Training System was the main cause of the progressive deterioration of PN personnel’s knowledge and skills. Training programs and curriculum being conducted at the main training institutions of the Philippine Navy were still the same as what the author had taken twenty-six (26) years ago when he joined the Navy. Worst, many of the training aids and facilities were already gone and never replaced nor modernized. As a result, the knowledge and skills gained by both the officers and enlisted men were designed only to operate and maintain World War II vintage navy ships.

...which in turn also reminded of a particular anecdote (http://lemming-articlestash.blogspot.com/2011/12/institutional-memory-and-reverse.html) on the importance of institutional memory.
Title: Re: Damage Control training @ PN
Post by: mayk on June 13, 2018, 05:35:29 PM
Skills gaps were also noticed in another discussion about personnel protection equipment for PN gun crews.

There is a 16 yr gap between the BRP Pangasinan pic and BRP Malvar pic. I think there is a matter of crew pride as well. The BRP Miguel Malvar was the most decorated ship during that "era".

For the PN, in the last 3 decades, the 90's would probably had the most acquisitions with the Bacolod, Aguinaldo, Tomas Batillo, Conrado Yap, Andrada, Jacinto classes plus the activation of the WWII ships. The 2000's were the worst with just the GMA and Point classes. The 2010's is almost ending with almost the same number as the 90's, LPDs, DCPFs, LCU, LCH, MPACs, Oilers and a research ship and hopefully a Korean corvette.

Sorry for the OT. But one of my pet peeves is why the PN can't match the 90's acquisition? Is it because of RA9184? The PN acquired 20+ Andrada class ships in a decade, the MPAC (which the PN requires twice the number) is trickling in comparison.

I just hope that the PN's and AFP's death spiral in general bottomed out at the pre Hamilton and FA50 yrs.
Title: Re: Damage Control training @ PN
Post by: mayk on June 13, 2018, 07:40:39 PM
I just had a thought. Would the low acquisition during the 2000's be due to the effects of the '97 Asian financial crisis? The currency lost value do much that modernization stopped. Even the F-5's were retired.

Would the 2008 sub prime crisis also the cause for the slow acquisition during the early part of 2010's?
Title: Re: Damage Control training @ PN
Post by: adroth on June 13, 2018, 10:24:30 PM
Sorry for the OT. But one of my pet peeves is why the PN can't match the 90's acquisition? Is it because of RA9184? The PN acquired 20+ Andrada class ships in a decade, the MPAC (which the PN requires twice the number) is trickling in comparison.

In the 90s, the US was paying for everything by way of rent for the US bases. The last of the rental camein by way of the two LSVs. Before then, the PN and PAF didn’t go to Malacanang for money. They went to the Pentagon. Both services suffered the most when the bases closed.

Today, we have to pay for pretty much everything ourselves. The two Tarlac class SSVs and the coming frigates, for example, are all paid for with Multi-Year Obligational Authorities (MYOA), so we spread out payments for them across multiple annual budgets. We didn’t figure out how to do those till 2010.
Title: Re: Damage Control training @ PN
Post by: mayk on June 14, 2018, 09:21:32 AM
We didn’t figure out how to do those till 2010.

That makes the 2000's a lost decade in terms of AFP modernization.
Title: Re: Damage Control training @ PN
Post by: mayk on June 14, 2018, 09:28:10 AM
In the 90s, the US was paying for everything by way of rent for the US bases.

Oh yeah I forgot about this one. The US was even paying for the maintenance of the WWII ships. Machinery parts were ordered stateside and those out pf production were fabricated stateside. PN ships would sail to Guam for scheduled downtime and have some R&R as well. And when this support stream stopped, the retrofitting of whats readily available began, residential equipment like the window and split type air conditioning, washing machines, generator sets made its way to PN ships.
Title: Re: Damage Control training @ PN
Post by: adroth on June 14, 2018, 12:20:33 PM
Feedback coming back from various PN sources.

On the matter of DC training

Quote
"Yes, DC is part of the shipboard module of all shipboarding courses. It's all standard theoreticals and practicals while in school. It only changes when one gets his/her assigned bow number. To each ship it's own...

On the matter of the disparity in how the Del Pilar crews conducted DC drills.

Quote
. . . for the damage control training and provisions all i can say is the del pilar class ships have inherited how the USN/USCG conducts dmage control to include their provisions..

as for the LDs they are not so equipped just like the del pilar class... this includes fire firghting ensembles and suit...

onboard del pilar ships... all personnel to be posted on that ship will undergo DC training for one week... that includes all of them.. and its being conducted by the ships DCTT - Dmg Control Training Team this includes training on fire fighting donning of SCABAs EEDBs pip patching shoring and everything which i think the LDs doesnt have
Title: Re: Damage Control training @ PN
Post by: adroth on June 14, 2018, 12:21:58 PM
We didn’t figure out how to do those till 2010.

That makes the 2000's a lost decade in terms of AFP modernization.

Not really. The Tagbanua and the MPACs were all acquired prior to 2010. Prior to 2010, the AFP was limited to what could be funded in a single annual budget.
Title: Re: Damage Control training @ PN
Post by: jetmech on June 14, 2018, 01:32:04 PM
Feedback coming back from various PN sources.

On the matter of DC training

Quote
"Yes, DC is part of the shipboard module of all shipboarding courses. It's all standard theoreticals and practicals while in school. It only changes when one gets his/her assigned bow number. To each ship it's own...

On the matter of the disparity in how the Del Pilar crews conducted DC drills.

Quote
. . . for the damage control training and provisions all i can say is the del pilar class ships have inherited how the USN/USCG conducts dmage control to include their provisions..

as for the LDs they are not so equipped just like the del pilar class... this includes fire firghting ensembles and suit...

onboard del pilar ships... all personnel to be posted on that ship will undergo DC training for one week... that includes all of them.. and its being conducted by the ships DCTT - Dmg Control Training Team this includes training on fire fighting donning of SCABAs EEDBs pip patching shoring and everything which i think the LDs doesnt have

....still begs the question, why the disparity in training & equipment? They had their chance to include it on the budget for the 2 amphibious ships, now the only reason is because the equipment 7 training were inherited from the USCG? Pointing fingers again. Like what I mentioned, 7 years gone by & still crawling not able to feed itself. 
Title: Re: Damage Control training @ PN
Post by: jetmech on June 15, 2018, 12:18:39 PM
  First Korean made frigate by 2020.  Expecting the plank owners who will need to undergo systems training will start formal training late 2018 to early 2019. Hopefully, it will include sailing with similar class Korean frigates. May not have the same combat systems but the layout will be the same (1st deck & below most likely and the helipad/ hangar). It will be important to learn how the Korean personnel approach different casualty drills (casualty=human or machinery in DC terms). While over there, maybe source out how much is it to buy Korean made firefighting ensemble and other equipment, maybe cheaper.

   For a trained crew with regards to Damage Control, it took 45 days to learn different casualty drills and pass an acceptance inspection we're safe to sail. I'm referring to a crew swap of 2 different class ships. From an LHD to an LHA and vise versa. Cross training was important since the ships were completely different. Flammable/ explosive store rooms, crew compartments (ours went from 2nd deck to 01 level), entry to #1 & 2 MMR amidship, location of AFFF (foam) stations etc. After being allowed to sail, training/ inspection at sea again for the combat systems / general quarters and casualty drills all over again. For old folks, like REFTRA! Less stressful than INSURV.
Title: Re: Damage Control training @ PN
Post by: dr demented on June 27, 2018, 03:23:41 AM
The article and the attached video discusses damage control and maintenance aboard the USCGC Active, a Reliance class WMEC that is about the same vintage as the Gregorio del Pilar class frigates.

http://coastguard.dodlive.mil/2018/06/damage-control-not-damage-repair-keeping-an-aging-cutter-active/

Quote
Damage control, not damage repair – keeping an aging cutter active

Posted by Diana Sherbs, Tuesday, June 26, 2018
Written by Petty Officer 1st Class Michael De Nyse

On July 20, 1969, Neil Armstrong became the first human to step onto the lunar surface of the moon; over 48 years later, the U.S. Coast Guard is still using the same technology to conduct modern day operations.

The Coast Guard Cutter Active, a 210-foot medium endurance Reliance-class cutter homeported in Port Angeles, Washington, is the eighth Coast Guard vessel to bear the name and was officially commissioned Sept. 1, 1966—almost three years before Neil Armstrong stepped foot on the moon.

Petty Officer 1st Class Victor Arcelay, a damage controlman and one of the 75 crew members aboard Active, has the daunting task of keeping the Active, well — active.

“Imagine you have a ship that is 52, 53-years-old, you have to deal with systems that are about the same age,” said Arcelay. “As everything advances, parts become obsolete and chasing down parts or trying to fix with what you have available is a challenge.”

The Active is currently operating well beyond its 30-year design service life. The Medium Endurance Cutter class is considered the backbone of the Coast Guard’s fleet; however, engineering challenges have plagued the operations of these vessels in recent years. There are many unique challenges to being the lead damage controlman aboard a cutter. It is damage control, not damage repair says Arcelay.

“Reporting here has kept me busy and I’m happy for it,” said Arcelay. “I usually tell my wife she’s my one and only, but the ship is my mistress, because I spend so many hours on this ship it would make any wife jealous.”

The crew returned June 1, 2018, from a 53-day counter-narcotics patrol in the Eastern Pacific Ocean where they interdicted three “panga” style vessels and one pleasure craft, resulting in the seizure of more than three tons of illicit narcotics worth an estimated $95 million wholesale value, and the apprehension of 11 suspected drug smugglers.

Despite aging platforms, Medium Endurance Cutter crews continue to patrol the drug transit zone in the Pacific Ocean near Central and South America with success. In fact, these crews stopped nearly a third of all drugs seized by the U.S. Coast Guard in Fiscal Year 2017, more than 138,000 pounds. In Fiscal Year 2017, the Coast Guard removed more than 493,000 pounds of cocaine worth more than $6.6 billion, which was a new record for the service, up from 443,000 pounds of cocaine in Fiscal Year 2016.

“I’m incredibly proud of this crew and their accomplishments,” said Cmdr. Chris German, commanding officer of the Active. “The success of this patrol is a testament to their hard work and dedication. Just to keep a 52-year-old ship in prime condition is a feat in and of itself, and they have done that and much more.”

Medium Endurance Cutters are scheduled for replacement by the Offshore Patrol Cutter, with construction of the first vessel slated to begin in 2018 and delivery of the first one scheduled for 2021. The OPC is one of the Coast Guard’s highest priority acquisitions, and as a replacement for the aging Medium Endurance Cutters, the OPC will be the foundation of the Coast Guard’s offshore fleet and bridge the gap between the capability of the National Security Cutter and the Fast Response Cutter.

Arcelay has 18 years of Coast Guard service under his belt, and he is at the end of his tour with the Active. He reports to Coast Guard Base Cape Cod in July.

“I’m pretty sure this is the unit that taught me the most,” said Arcelay. “It’s made me a better person, a better damage controlman, a better technician, and I’ve done so much to this ship to help keep her afloat that I’m sure this unit has been the most helpful in my career.”