Defense of the Republic of the Philippines

General Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: adroth on October 31, 2016, 05:41:11 AM

Title: Hoax: In the 60s, the AFP was the most powerful military in Asia outside Japan
Post by: adroth on October 31, 2016, 05:41:11 AM
Administrator's note: A companion thread for this discussion is available on the forum's FB extension here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/rpdefense/permalink/1111738445578668/


====


Every now and then, this pile of carabao crap of a claim gets shoveled on to various fora and the forum's FB extension. Complete with historically accurate, but out-of-context photos like this. (Photo c/o of the Francis Neri albums)

(http://defenseph.net/bootcamp/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/73407_10200420200288532_92562913_n.jpg)

This meme is often perpetuated by well meaning, but ultimately misguided, posters desperately looking to the the past -- even an imagined one -- for something to brag about. Other perpetrators of this myth are Marcos fanbois with a historical-revisionist agenda.

The old forum had a rich thread outlining why this claim was so hopelessly divorced from reality that Timawans could readily use for fact checks. Time to rebuild this myth-busting resource.

=====

Here are a few starter tid bits.

Vietnam

The AFP has never had a full-fledged SAM-based air defense system. Contrast that Vietnam which had been shooting down USAF and USN aircraft even at the height of the PAF's glory days in the 60s. Photo from: http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/Visit/MuseumExhibits/FactSheets/Display/tabid/509/Article/196037/sa-2-surface-to-air-missile.aspx

(http://defenseph.net/bootcamp/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/090605-F-1234P-016.jpg)

Indonesia

The Philippine Navy has NEVER operated submarines. In contrast, the oldest submarine force in SEA belongs to Indonesia, which has been operating submarines since 1959. Photo from (http://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2015/11/indonesian-submarine-history-and-youtube.html)

(http://defenseph.net/bootcamp/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Indonesian-Whiskey-Subs-Operation-Trikora-1962.png)

Thailand

At its height, the Philippines operated 7 M-41 Walker Bulldog light tanks which were armed with a high-velocity 76mm gun. Arguably the most powerful gun in the history of the Philippine Army. In contrast, Thailand operated 200 of these vehicles.



Title: Re: Hoax: In the 60s, the AFP was the most powerful military in Asia outside Japan
Post by: adroth on October 31, 2016, 07:12:21 AM
An SME posting on this thread's companion post on the FB extension

https://www.facebook.com/groups/rpdefense/permalink/1111738445578668/?comment_id=1111762632242916&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R5%22%7D

(http://defenseph.net/bootcamp/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/neri.jpg)

(http://defenseph.net/bootcamp/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/neri2.jpg)
Title: Re: Hoax: In the 60s, the AFP was the most powerful military in Asia outside Japan
Post by: adroth on October 31, 2016, 08:22:35 AM
An SME posting on this thread's companion post on the FB extension

https://www.facebook.com/groups/rpdefense/permalink/1111738445578668/?comment_id=1111762632242916&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R5%22%7D

(http://defenseph.net/bootcamp/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/neri.jpg)

There were few places more emblematic of the "proxy conflict" of the Cold War than the Vietnam War. With both superpowers equipping their respective allies

South Vietnam

(http://defenseph.net/bootcamp/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/North_Vietnamese_Capture_of_Bien_Hoa_Air_Base_25_April_1975.jpg)

North Vietnam

(http://defenseph.net/bootcamp/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/1-EbiIBS0bIAO9S9d-hwTuGA.jpeg)

Photo c/o: https://warisboring.com/the-legend-of-the-vietnam-wars-mystery-fighter-ace-610c46e91474#.s4lb61cfs

It is also worth noting that North Vietnam had 2nd generation MBTs and used them in the Battle for Saigon. The AFP has never had MBTs in its inventory.

(http://defenseph.net/bootcamp/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/150429-saigon-6-editorial.jpg)

FILE - In this April 30, 1975 file photo, a North Vietnamese tank rolls through the gates of the Presidential Palace in Saigon, signifying the fall of South Vietnam. The war ended on April 30, 1975, with the fall of Saigon, now known as Ho Chi Minh City, to communist troops from the north. (AP Photo/File)
Title: Re: Hoax: In the 60s, the AFP was the most powerful military in Asia outside Japan
Post by: adroth on November 01, 2016, 01:34:39 PM
Some of the folks who swallowed the hoax hook, line, and sinker, are actually defending this fairy tale. Hopefully SIPRI can help them out.

This one is for Indonesia . . . just for the Russian section of their listing from 1950 to 1975

(http://defenseph.net/bootcamp/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/indo4.jpg)

(http://defenseph.net/bootcamp/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/indo5.jpg)
Title: Re: Hoax: In the 60s, the AFP was the most powerful military in Asia outside Japan
Post by: Raider1114 on November 01, 2016, 11:18:31 PM
Indonesian Air Force, the first user of C-130B Hercules (outside USAF) in 1960 -Ivan tenges Fallback Point Defense Review
Title: Re: Hoax: In the 60s, the AFP was the most powerful military in Asia outside Japan
Post by: Raider1114 on November 01, 2016, 11:20:00 PM
The Indonesian Police Ranger Regiment is the first overseas user of US made AR-15 in 1960. Photo showing personnel of the Indonesian Police Ranger using AR-15 boarding a boat for infiltration mission during West Papua conflict with Dutch military in 1961. - Ivan tenges Fallback Point Defense Review
Title: Re: Hoax: In the 60s, the AFP was the most powerful military in Asia outside Japan
Post by: Raider1114 on November 01, 2016, 11:27:08 PM
Yudhistira Oktavianta - Fallback Point Defense Review

KRI Irian 201 Sverdlov-class Cruiser
Lot of information that the Navy of the Republic of Indonesia (TNI AL) ever had a cruiser (light cruiser class) namely KRI Irian hull number 201 as one of the mainstays that was held in a military campaign to seize back the West Irian (Papua) of power Netherlands. KRI Irian at that time was one of the biggest ship in the Asian region.
Until now there has been no country in Southeast Asia never had a cruiser than Indonesia. The legendary cruiser is KRI Irian, the Indonesian government deliberately brought in liberation of West Irian (Papua).
Starting from modernizing weapons systems that pioneered Maj. AH Nasution (at that time as Minister for defense) since 1957 to the United States to apply for a loan for the purchase of defense equipment, cold response, however, the group went to Moscow with the same intention. In the land of Red Bear proposals are approved. With the warming of relations between Indonesia and the Netherlands over West Irian issue, then in early 1960, Nikita Khrushchev visited Jakarta and approve the purchase agreement line of defense equipment from the Soviet Union on the basis of long-term loans.
KRI Irian was Sverdlov class cruiser with the naming code soviet Project 68-bis. This type of ship is the last ship of conventional explorers made to the Soviet Navy, 13 vessels completed before Nikita Khrushchev to stop this program because the ship was considered old-fashioned kind with the advent of missiles (guided missiles).
Ships of this type is the development and a larger version of Chapayev class cruiser. Resemblance to ship KRI Irian Chapayev class is on the main weapon, machining, and side protection. While the difference lies in the capacity more fuel for more mileage, wholly welded hull, underwater protection better, anti-aircraft artillery and radar better better anyway.
History KRI Irian
Ship KRI Irian formerly Ordzhonikidze (Орджоникидзе) (Object 055) from the Baltic fleet purchased by the Indonesian government in 1962. Currently it is the largest ship KRI Irian southern hemisphere. This vessel is actively used for the preparation of West Irian.
This ship was made at the Admiralty Yard, Leningrad. The first keel laying took place on October 9, 1949, the ship was launched on 17 September 1950, and the first time the ship operated on June 30, 1952.
Preparation Operation in Indonesia
On January 11, 1961 the Soviet government began to issue instructions to the Central Design Bureau # 17 to modify the order Ordzhonikidze ideal operating in the tropics. Large-scale modernization done to make this ship can operate at a temperature of +40 ° C, humidity 95%, and a water temperature of +30 ° C.
But representatives of the Indonesian Navy who then visited the city Baltiisk stated that they were not able to bear the cost of such a project. Modernization eventually transferred to the installation of a more powerful diesel generators to drive additional ventilator.
On February 14, 1961 the ship arrived in Sevastopol and on 5 April 1962 this ship begin sea trials. At that time the Indonesian crew of this ship has been formed and there on the boat. This boat mechanic Mr Yatijan, later became head of the Department of the Navy Engineering. So are a lot of other sailors, at a later date that is able to occupy many important positions.
Operational
Come to Surabaya on August 5, 1962 and was declared out of the official Soviet Navy on January 24, 1963. The Soviet Union never sold ships with this heavy weight to other countries except for Indonesia. Navy of the Republic of Indonesia who had never previously had their own fleet, learn to operate the ships sophisticated and expensive it by trial and error / trial and error.
In November 1962 recorded a diesel submarine damaged due to collision when rising to the surface, a destroyer damaged and 3 of 6 KRI Irian broken boiler. Hot temperatures and high humidity negative effect on the Navy fleet, resulting in a lot of equipment that can not operate optimally. On the other hand, the presence of these vessels make the Dutch Navy drastically reduce its presence in the waters of West Irian.
Improvement
In 1964 the explorer ship has completely lost its operational efficiency and decided to send KRI Irian to Vladivostok for repairs. At KRI Irian until March 1964 in Plant Dalzavod. Soviet sailors and technicians were surprised to see the condition of the ship and many small improvements that should have been done by the crew was not done. They are also interested in the slight modifications made to the Navy clothing change room into a prayer room (something which may not happen in a communist country).
Reassignment
After the repair was completed in August 1964 with an escort boat to Surabaya.. A year later (1965) a change of government, practical government authority in the hands of Suharto. Suharto attention to the Navy is very different than Sukarno. The ship was allowed to lie fallow in Surabaya, sometimes used as a prison for political opponents of Suharto.
Retired
There are several versions about the history of KRI Irian after the G-30 (assassinated six Indonesian Army generals in an abortive coup d'état.):
The first version says that in 1970, KRI Irian was so badly neglected until it begins to fill with water. No one cared to save these Ship. So at the time served as a Navy Chief Admiral Sudomo, the KRI Irian was scrapined in Taiwan in 1972 by reason of a chronic shortage of component parts.
The second version, according Hendro Subroto, warships made just four of these are sold to Japan after the stripped down its weapons. "Whereas in Tanjung Priok there are two parts warehouses. But because of previous treatments handled the Russians, after Gestapu, we do not have engineers anymore," said Hendro.
>Common Characteristics :
Weight: 13,600 T standard, 16,640 full load T
Length: 210 m overall, 205 m waterline
Width: 22 m
Draft: 6.9 m
>Protective armor :
The main armored belt: 100 mm
Stern: 32 mm
Deck: 50 mm
House deck: 130 mm
The main cannon shell: 175 mm
>Electronic Equipment
Radar:
Air Search Radar Gyus-2
Ryf sea surface search radar
Neptun radar navigation
Sonar:
Tamir-5N mounted in hull
Other:
Machta ECM (Electronic Counter Measures)
>Artillery KRI Irian :
The main weapon is the fruit of the KRI Irian 4 turret, where each turret contains 3 cannon measuring 6 inches. For a total of 6-inch 12-caliber guns on the deck.
Torpedo Tubes 10 anti-submarine caliber 533 mm
12 Fruit Cannon type 57 cal B-38 Caliber 15.2 cm (6 front, 6 Rear)
12 Fruit double Cannon type 56 cal Model 1934 6 (twin)-SM 5-1 mounts Caliber 10 cm
32 Fruit canon multi function caliber 3.7 cm
4 Fruit triple Mk5-bis turrets gun caliber 20 mm (for the purposes of anti-air attack)
>Propulsion
As the driving force, KRI Irian 2 pieces rely on TB-72 steam turbine receiving steam supply of 6 units Boilers KV-68 and routed through a 2 piece shaft.
Total power available is about 110,000 to 122,000 hp hp on both shafts, power is capable of making 13,600 tons this ship reaches a maximum speed of 32.5 knots. While the maximum distance that can be traveled is 9000 nautical miles at a constant speed of 18 knots.
>Number of crew
The ship can accommodate 1,270 crew members, including:
60 officers,
75 officer supervisors,
154 first officer.
>Ship crew
Star crew got Sakti is the Vice Lieutenant Sukardi, started checking the time while the ship boiler provides training to its members, while turning turbo ventilator loud explosion as steam pipeline rupture. The explosion resulted in injury to the Vice Lieutenant Sukardi along Corporal M Hitipeuw and J. Seaman Two Biama, last for two days in intensive care at the Naval Hospital in Jakarta. Lieutenant Sukardi maid died. Furthermore Milky Star award is given to his heirs in 1966.
>Officers who had served in the KRI Irian was:
Former Commander of the TNI and Menkopolkam in the United Indonesia Cabinet, Admiral (ret) Widodo AS then served as Weapons Officer in 1968.
Dr.. Tarmizi Taher, former Minister of Religious Affairs in the Development Cabinet VI, as Health Officer in KRI Irian.
Dr.. Kartono Mohamad, older brother of Gunawan Mohamad, founder of Tempo magazine. He had been a doctor in the KRI Irian during duty in the Navy (1964-1975).
source asmilnews.blogspot.com
Title: Re: Hoax: In the 60s, the AFP was the most powerful military in Asia outside Japan
Post by: Raider1114 on November 01, 2016, 11:28:08 PM
More photos
Title: Re: Hoax: In the 60s, the AFP was the most powerful military in Asia outside Japan
Post by: Raider1114 on November 01, 2016, 11:34:58 PM
Ivan Tenges - Fallback Point Defense Review

History : The Story behind Indonesia first acquisition of C-130 Hercules in 1960.
The first Hercules C 130 was made in 1956 and the first non-US user was Australian Air Force.
But the newer type, Hercules C-130B made in 1959 first customer outside US Air Force was the Indonesian Air Force.
Indonesian Air Force bought 8 units of C-130B and 2 units of KC-130B and the aircraft was delivered to Indonesian Air Force in September 1960. The interesting story behind this major purchase is that the plane is a 'gift' by president Kennedy to president Soekarno for releasing CIA pilot Allen Pope whose captured by Indonesian Forces after his plane was shot down by Indonesian fighter in 1958.
Allen Pope is a CIA agent disguised as mercenary pilot flying A-26 Invader for the Permesta Rebels in North Sulawesi.
On March 1958 after attacking Indonesian Army base in Ambon, Allen Pope's A-26 Invader was ambushed and shot down by Indonesian F-51D Mustang piloted by Captain Ignatius Dewanto from Indonesian Air Force.
Allen Pope was sent to trial in Jakarta, found guilty. facing death penalty but never executed because he was released under direct order of president Soekarno in early 1960.
Some said that the first Squadron of C-130B is a bribed from US government to president Soekarno for releasing Allen Pope.
Title: Re: Hoax: In the 60s, the AFP was the most powerful military in Asia outside Japan
Post by: Raider1114 on November 01, 2016, 11:36:22 PM
CIA pilot, Allen Pope on trial in Indonesia
Title: Re: Hoax: In the 60s, the AFP was the most powerful military in Asia outside Japan
Post by: Raider1114 on November 01, 2016, 11:38:27 PM
TNI Airborne troops (paskhas) in with C-130 Hercules in early 60's
https://scontent.fmnl3-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/10171821_10152460485797711_4610294710236096198_n.jpg?oh=55d91974ec5e54f8513002c36c578f11&oe=5893419B
Title: Re: Hoax: In the 60s, the AFP was the most powerful military in Asia outside Japan
Post by: Raider1114 on November 02, 2016, 11:52:29 AM
Anyone could provide info about the missiles TNI was the first guided missile operator in southeast asia if I'm not mistaken i just lost the thread
Title: Re: Hoax: In the 60s, the AFP was the most powerful military in Asia outside Japan
Post by: adroth on November 05, 2016, 12:32:26 AM
A little insight into the kind of mindset that perpetuates this hoax.

Seriously!!! Just because the US had bases in the Philippines, you already count that as Philippine assets???

https://www.facebook.com/groups/rpdefense/permalink/1111738445578668/?comment_id=1112832565469256&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D

(http://defenseph.net/bootcamp/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/hoax.jpg)
Title: Re: Hoax: In the 60s, the AFP was the most powerful military in Asia outside Japan
Post by: miggye on November 07, 2016, 07:10:21 PM
A little insight into the kind of mindset that perpetuates this hoax.

Seriously!!! Just because the US had bases in the Philippines, you already count that as Philippine assets???

https://www.facebook.com/groups/rpdefense/permalink/1111738445578668/?comment_id=1112832565469256&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D

(http://defenseph.net/bootcamp/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/hoax.jpg)

Say what now? Gawd! i couldn't even follow the thread of his reasoning! another dellusional case....... :P
Title: Re: Hoax: In the 60s, the AFP was the most powerful military in Asia outside Japan
Post by: mamiyapis on November 07, 2016, 11:38:52 PM
The Indonesians would have eaten the AFP for breakfast, and then be done rolling across most of the country by dinner time by sheer strength of their armed forces, especially after their war for independence from their Dutch colonial overlords.

Had they played their cards right, they could have actually convinced Uncle Sam to let them take the Philippines and make a US friendly country that could control waters from the Indian to the Pacific Ocean. We're just lucky no one thought of that particular idea especially in the very fluid and play-it-loose climate of the 60s and 70s.
Title: Re: Hoax: In the 60s, the AFP was the most powerful military in Asia outside Japan
Post by: adroth on November 08, 2016, 11:47:42 PM
Say what now? Gawd! i couldn't even follow the thread of his reasoning! another dellusional case....... :P

Sad thing is . . . this guy claims to be a veteran. There was actually a self-declared former officer, who ran his own FB group, that echoed this guy's sentiments.
Title: Re: Hoax: In the 60s, the AFP was the most powerful military in Asia outside Japan
Post by: adroth on November 14, 2016, 03:03:11 AM
More insight into how people actually justify the hoax.

The truth hurts. But until we deal with these truths, we will never get to where we need -- or want -- to be as a nation.

(http://defenseph.net/bootcamp/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/us1.jpg)

(http://defenseph.net/bootcamp/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/us2.jpg)

(http://defenseph.net/bootcamp/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/us3.jpg)

(http://defenseph.net/bootcamp/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/us4.jpg)
Title: Re: Hoax: In the 60s, the AFP was the most powerful military in Asia outside Japan
Post by: Jaypee the fifth on March 21, 2017, 07:52:07 PM
Sir A, Is it your data about Indonesia's weaponry comes from SIPRI website??
Title: Re: Hoax: In the 60s, the AFP was the most powerful military in Asia outside Japan
Post by: adroth on March 22, 2017, 06:16:39 AM
Sir A, Is it your data about Indonesia's weaponry comes from SIPRI website??

This list came from SIPRI

http://defenseph.net/drp/index.php?topic=535.msg1234#msg1234

But SIPRI isn't the only source of myth-busting data. There is a wealth of reliable information about the capabilities of our neighbors that's actually available for folks who want to check their facts.

Go to a neighborhood library with copies of Janes Fighting Ships or Combat Fleets of the World, for example, and the facts are plain to see.
Title: Re: Hoax: In the 60s, the AFP was the most powerful military in Asia outside Japan
Post by: Mokong on March 25, 2017, 09:31:18 AM
Now, if you add a kuya's combat power located in country, that would be another story.

Question is, how did we view the alliance at that time?
-not asking for a US perspective!
Title: Re: Hoax: In the 60s, the AFP was the most powerful military in Asia outside Japan
Post by: LionFlyer on March 25, 2017, 10:15:57 AM
During the 60s, Indonesia tilted to the Russians under Sukarno and with it came massive Soviet assistance. For awhile, they were the top most strategic threat in SEA on the minds of the Australians and pretty much, SEATO.

Massive in the form of:

A dozen Whiskey class submarines
(https://indomiliter.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/pasopati.jpg)

KRI Irian, a Svedlov class cruiser

(https://cdns.klimg.com/merdeka.com/i/w/news/2016/06/24/723207/670x335/kri-irian-legenda-kapal-perang-raksasa-milik-tni-al.jpg)

25 x TU-16 Badgers with AS-1 cruise missiles
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-tbf2PBVn-KA/UF1pvM--hOI/AAAAAAAAKTg/n5YSyp6oTOs/s640/TU-16-AURI.jpg)

Beyond these were the MiGs (13, 21s, later given to the US when they tilted the other way, post Sukarno), PT-76s (still in use, although being retired) and various military aids.
Title: Re: Hoax: In the 60s, the AFP was the most powerful military in Asia outside Japan
Post by: dr demented on April 27, 2017, 09:57:12 PM
This is an interesting article that I posted several times in the FB honeypot.  The article itself is about the escape of the South Vietnamese navy after the fall of Saigon.

Most of those ships eventually wound up being incorporated into the Philippine Navy.  However, it is interesting to note that the Philippine government was preparing to honor a request from the new Communist regime of Vietnam to return the ships and the 30,000 refugees aboard.

It almost give the feeling of fleet expansion by default.

http://www.historynet.com/how-to-steal-a-navy-and-save-30000-refugees-in-the-process.htm

Quote
Finally reaching the Philippines after seven days and about 1,000 miles, Captain Jacobs got some bad news. “The Philippine government wasn’t going to allow us in, period,” Jacobs recalled, “because these ships belonged to the North Vietnamese now and they didn’t want to offend the new country.” Indeed, Philippine President Ferdinand Marcos, a staunch U.S. ally during the war, was one of the first to recognize the new Communist rulers now in control of Vietnam. Marcos had been disappointed to see the United States abandon its ally but thought it prudent to establish a correct and respectful relationship with the new Communist Vietnam. And the new power in Southeast Asia wanted its ships back.

Armitage knew there was no way the leaking ships, with their decks teeming with exhausted refugees, could limp on to Guam, so he and Captain Do came up with a solution that Marcos could live with. “We would raise the American flag and lower the Vietnamese flag as a sign of transfer of the ships back to the United States,” Do said. “Now the war is over, we turn them back to the U.S.”

In addition to the deft legal maneuver, Do saw the opportunity to do something important for the now nationless refugees. “We lost our country, lost our pride and lost everything,” he said. “We asked to have a ceremony that would save us face and our dignity.” A frantic search ensued to find 32 American flags, and then officers from Kirk were sent aboard each Vietnamese ship to take command after a formal flag ceremony. After speeches were made, the ships’ guns were disassembled, and identifying letters painted over.

“That was the last vestige of South Vietnam,” said Rick Sauter, one of Kirk’s officers who took command of a Vietnamese ship. “When those flags came down and the American flags went up, that was it. Because a Navy ship is sovereign territory, that was the last sovereign territory of the Republic of South Vietnam.”

In Subic Bay on May 8, 1975, American flags fly on what legally had been the last sovereign territory of the Repbulic of Vietnam, the 32 South Vietnam navy ships that were led there by Kirk. (National Archives)
Before the Republic of Vietnam flags were lowered, thousands of people on the ships started to sing the national anthem of South Vietnam, Nay cong dan oi….(Oh, citizens of the country….). “Their voices soared over the waters,” Captain Do recalled. “When they lower the flag, they cry, cry, cry.”

On May 7, the ships, all flying American flags, were allowed to enter Subic Bay. They were eventually transferred to the Philippine navy.


The story is also told in NPR (there is an audio component in the link also):

http://www.npr.org/2010/09/01/129578263/at-war-s-end-u-s-ship-rescued-south-vietnam-s-navy

Quote
But as the flotilla approached the Philippines, the Kirk's captain got some bad news. The presence of South Vietnamese vessels in a Philippine port would present the government in Manila with a diplomatic predicament.

"The Philippine government wasn't going to allow us in, period, because these ships belonged to the North Vietnamese now and they didn't want to offend the new country," Jacobs, the captain, recalls.

The government of Philippine President Ferdinand Marcos was one of the first to recognize the Communist rulers now in control of a single Vietnam, and Jacobs was told the ships should go back.

Armitage and his South Vietnamese friend, Capt. Do, came up with a solution that Marcos had to accept.

Do recalls the plan: "We will raise the American flag and lower the Vietnamese flag as a sign of transfer [of] the ship back to the United States, because during the war those ships are given to the Vietnamese government as a loan, if you want, from the United States, to fight the Communists. Now the war is over, we turn them back to the United States."

There was a frantic search to find 30 American flags. Two officers from the Kirk were sent aboard each Vietnamese ship to take command after a formal flag ceremony.

Rick Sautter was one of the Kirk officers who took command of a Vietnamese ship.

"That was the last vestige of South Vietnam. And when those flags came down and the American flags went up, that was it. Because a Navy ship is sovereign territory and so that was the last sovereign territory of the Republic of Vietnam," he says.

"Thousands and thousands of people on the boats start to sing the [South Vietnamese] national anthem. When they lower the flag, they cry, cry, cry," Do remembers.
Title: Re: Hoax: In the 60s, the AFP was the most powerful military in Asia outside Japan
Post by: 40niner on April 28, 2017, 06:48:11 AM
The list below are among those ex-Rep of Vietnam ships which eventually were put into service by PN between 1975-1978 : (There were also a large number ex-US Military Sea Transportation Service ships -- LST (at least thirteen) and auxiliary support ships -- that were also eventually transferred to PN during those period, plus a few ex-Cambodian )
Title: Re: Hoax: In the 60s, the AFP was the most powerful military in Asia outside Japan
Post by: 40niner on April 28, 2017, 07:04:44 AM
Most of those ships eventually wound up being incorporated into the Philippine Navy.  ...

It almost give the feeling of fleet expansion by default.
More than doubled?

We only had these medium-sized combatants :
* one Destroyer Escort / Patrol ship at that time -- PS76 Datu Kalantiaw, and the two more ex-JMSDF DEs(eventually Humabon and Sikatuna) were still being negotiated;
* two Auk/MSF (Quezon and Rizal)
* five PCEs (Cebu, Negros Occ, Leyte, Pangasinan, Iloilo)
* 1-to-3 PC461s
* a number of ex-WWII LST (conditions unknown in 1975-76) received either in 1947-48 (five were received, 1 retired in 1962), or those in 1969 (four) and 1972 (three).
Title: Re: Hoax: In the 60s, the AFP was the most powerful military in Asia outside Japan
Post by: Jaypee the fifth on May 20, 2017, 10:40:49 AM
Thanks for the info Sir A! In terms of historical references SIPRI is good, but it has infos that needs to verify. During my thesis days, i collected my data about arms transfer at UN Register of Conventional Arms (UNROCA), but you can only see the tally of existing weapons in a certain year. I tried to look at IISS's Military Balance, but their existing data dated back late 90s or early 2000s (try to look at Taylor and Francis page, sometimes they gave free access to IISS's Military Balance). IHS Jane's is the best source, but you can't see some reliable books because of its obsolesce (i pertained here the Cold War military equipment inventory books made by the IHS Jane's).
Title: Re: Hoax: In the 60s, the AFP was the most powerful military in Asia outside Japan
Post by: adroth on May 20, 2017, 01:11:13 PM
IHS Jane's is the best source, but you can't see some reliable books because of its obsolesce (i pertained here the Cold War military equipment inventory books made by the IHS Jane's).

IHS Janes are its share of errors as well. There used to be a thread about Jane's errors in the old forum. I need to re-assemble that.
Title: Re: Hoax: In the 60s, the AFP was the most powerful military in Asia outside Japan
Post by: Jaypee the fifth on May 27, 2017, 12:42:42 AM
Is it true that Janes errors too?? It is my first time to know about this sir.
Title: Re: Hoax: In the 60s, the AFP was the most powerful military in Asia outside Japan
Post by: adroth on May 27, 2017, 03:11:11 AM
Is it true that Janes errors too?? It is my first time to know about this sir.

We had an entire thread focusing on Janes errors in the old forum. Will need to rebuild that thread. One example, Janes still lists BRP Mactan as operational, even then its been off the PN roster, and officially decommissioned, for over half a decade.
Title: Re: Hoax: In the 60s, the AFP was the most powerful military in Asia outside Japan
Post by: adroth on February 27, 2018, 12:13:58 PM
The hoax continues

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2094332160786283&id=1504593446426827&ref=m_notif&notif_t=feedback_reaction_generic